Authority is not the truth, truth is the authority!

[more force 4]

Why the whole Laden family was flew out of the U.S right after the 9/11?

Thats easy. It wasn't the whole family, it was a few siblings/cousins etc I believe. They would have been lynched by mobs if left in the US. They are a powerful family with business links to Bush et al. Osama was a "black sheep"; many families have them. I believe he has dozens of brothers and sisters, the product of polygyny. One of them just married one of the British aristocracy, I don't think he'd even met his brother. And many Saudis privately support OBL ideals anyway. In terms of the parts of the creed that resists US aggression - as do many BWD members it seems.

A lot of this is religeous war anyway, not political. I vividly remember one of George Bush's first speaches after 9-11 and he said he was going to head a "Crusade" against terrorism. I remember being aghast at the word and wondering if that was just an uneducated slip of the tongue, or he really wanted to take on all Islam.

[Kite Kook]

The producers quote was actually:
"It is my hope that people will not take what is said in the film as truth, but find out for themselves, for truth is not told, it is realized.”
I watched the film. Reminded me a bit of Loose Change (9/11 agiprop). I find the film has a few problems, but I'm not sure which has more - that or the official story of 911! It is worth watching, at the very least. Reading other's critique's and reviews is a poor substitute, as there is much content that isn't debated.

In all my reading, researching and wondering, I have never found a reallly satisfying explanation of how building 7 came down. If anyone has a good explanation of that, please post. I might sleep better at night.

I do heartily agree that time is generally better spent addressing the real evils of our governments rather than the conspiracy angle, but think it can be helpful reminder to make people think and not simply accept the network news version of the truth. So, for that reason, I am glad this was posted.

Cheers - and thanks to all those who contributed to the post.

[mortontoemike]

If you want to worry about something worry about this. To me this is far more worrisome than wacky conspiracies.

There is a new book. Blackwater: The Rise of the World's Most Powerful Mercenary Army - By Jeremy Scahill

http://www.buzzflash.com/store/reviews/524

Blackwater is the elite Praetorian Guard for the “global war on terror,” with its own military base, a fleet of twenty aircraft, and 20,000 soldiers at the ready. Run by a multimillionaire Christian conservative who bankrolls President Bush and his allies, its forces are capable of overthrowing governments."

"This engrossing investigative piece exposing, in shocking detail, a U.S. government-outsourced Frankenstein replete with helicopter gun ships may leave you incredulous. But you better believe it, for it poses a grave and gathering danger to the future of our Republic."
--Ray McGovern, CIA veteran and former intelligence briefer for George H. W. Bush

A decade ago, the company barely existed; and yet, its "diplomatic
security" contracts since mid-2004, with the State Department alone, total
more than $750 million. Today, Blackwater has become nothing short of the Bush administration's well-paid Praetorian Guard. It protects the U.S.
ambassador and other senior officials in Iraq as well as visiting
Congressional delegations; it trains Afghan security forces and was
deployed in the oil-rich Caspian Sea region, setting up a "command and
control" center just miles from the Iranian border.

REad more: http://www.alternet.org/waroniraq/51276/

My question? What are the limits to this kind of civilian military force? How large should a "private for hire army" be allowed to get? Can anyone form a large civilian force of this kind and hire it out?

[voodmon]

Correct, have you seen the movie The Shooter..? Blackwater for black ops...?

[voodmon]

just a heads up, the US is standing down all military planes, fighters, bombers etc on friday the 14th, as a result of the b52 wingmount transport of the six cruise missiles armed with nuclear warheads, apparently one missile is missing or the press by mistake or on purpose changed a 6 to a five on arrival at the bombers destination...source ..new york times, washington post...El Al has cancelled all flights to the US on the 13, 14 and 15th, it could be due to the jewish holiday, anyway, just a heads up...remember sept 11th, norad war games, all east coast fighter defense elsewhere, controllers confused, etc...smells fishy to me..

[Barb W]

www.realitysandwich.com/if_you_see_some ... _something

[more force 4]

"If you see something say something" is an AWESOME poem, Barb, thanks for sharing the link.

[Schooled]

Sorry MM, the physics of the event just do not point to a collapse.....there is too much evidence to prove otherwise.

I have studied the laws of physics too much to be ignorant to the characteristics of the collapse and its properties.

I do not think your study of the "laws of physics" has made you an expert on building collapse Colin. In fact such laws aren't directly useful here at all. What is useful, and seemingly lacking, is common sense.

When you go to the Doctor do you trust their opinion on what is best for you? When you get on a plane do you trust the pilot to know how to fly it? Do you trust scientists that their experiments were true? Any expert may be wrong from time to time, but when the vast majority of experts in a given field and in this case many fields hold a common opinion, and you are not an expert, you should admit their experience and knowledge and accept their judgment.

That is the case here. Other than a few exceptions, almost nobody with relevant experience appears to believe in 9-11 collapse conspiracy theories. Neither should you.

Read the counterpoints to the building collapse conspiracy theories. The vast majority of "facts" these conspiracy theories are based on are simply the result of inaccuracies propagated by bouncing around the internet echo chamber.

A 5 minute google search brings up responses to all 9-11 claims. Don't just read what mortontoemike, MF4, and The Dogs Bollucks said, all of which are excellent points. Think about it. No, stop, think about it again. What is really the most plausible reason here, not the one many of us sort of hope is true as additional confirmation of how terrible Bush and his cronies are?

Use some common sense here people! Our society is in dire dire shape if we can't even do that.

Thanks for the poem Barb.

[more force 4]

I just came across a link to a story that also is getting virtually no press. I thought the Americans not protecting the National Museum when they invaded was just an oversight and poor planning for what to do once the Republican Guard stopped shooting. Not only it wasn't, but it was just the start.

Some quotes from the article:

"British and American collusion in the pillaging of Iraq's heritage is a scandal that will outlive any passing conflict "

"Under Saddam you were likely to be tortured and shot if you let someone steal an antiquity; in today's Iraq you are likely to be tortured and shot if you don't. "

"The local tank commander was told specifically not to protect the museum for a full two weeks after the invasion. Even the Nazis protected the Louvre."

"...a report two years ago by John Curtis, of the British Museum, on America's conversion of Nebuchadnezzar's great city of Babylon into the hanging gardens of Halliburton. "

" a message reputedly put out from Moqtada al-Sadr's office, that while Muslim heritage should be respected, pre-Muslim relics were up for grabs. "

Here's the full article
http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,,2098273,00.html

[mortontoemike]

Right on Schooled. Here is a presentation that tells the story.

Civil engineer S. Shyam Sunder served as the lead investigator. In this audio slide show, Sunder describes the series of structural and fire-related events within the towers as they progressed toward catastrophic collapse. As a result of the study, NIST made recommendations for changes to building codes and standards.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/wtc/sunder.html

[Kite Kook]

For all those interested and concerned with matters raised on this thread, I highly reccommend Znet. http://www.zmag.org/weluser.htm.

Znet is very extensive online progressive magazine and community of alternative news, opinions, discussion forums, and resources from Z Magazine. It's one of my all-time favourite websites, and an excellent resource for those interested in social justice, change, and seeking the truth.

One thing I see in common with those who on this list who sympathise with the 'conspiracy theorists' and those who don't is a desire to educate themselves/others and have the truth be known so we can effect change together. Znet is one of the most useful tools for doing so. It takes time to orientate (not well laid out), but is a fantastic and fascinating resource.

Cheers,

Paul

[thankgodiatepastafobreaky]

Silverstein admitted that they demolished the building 7 on purpose:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=26qKSg-G4CE
so that begs the question " were the trade towers built to demolish - and why?"

And here is more good discussion arguing that:
http://www.breakfornews.com/Audio.htm

and a great online movie more comprehensive than Loose Change:
http://www.zeitgeistmovie.com/
and a great movie that gives a backgrounder to all the reasons why the US elite want WAR is called- "Why We Fight" - and is in video stores.

I'm afraid we can't trust anything we hear on the TV and Radio - It's mass hypnosis, or brainwashing.
We need TRUTH - then we need A REVOLUTION!!

[foilboy]

Thanks for the post TGIAPFB. Strange how this conflicts with the NIST version. How long does it take to prep a building to "pull it"? Strange also how the mainstream followers are most adamant about defending the official version without a doubt although there are so many poorly answered questions. Must be just common sense to believe the authorities or whatever you see on CNN or Fox. Just like it was common sense to believe the Earth is a disc or that the Communists burnt down the Reichstag or that Iraq possessed WMD.
The internet is hardly a reliable source for valid information and this thread can be endless with either side finding abundance of "evidence". It does not look like anyone will be converted by the "facts" provided but it would be nice if some critical thinking could result. I am happy to see more and keep my mind open.

[more force 4]

Foilboy if you re-read the posts 'supporting the official version' you will find a nearly universal distrust of mainstream media and government propaganda. But distinguishing between plausible alternates and plain crap is usually not too hard. Especially when you start to read some criticisms by both sides. I always strive to keep an open mind. I still haven't seen the movie - my home computer doesn't like much video. But I looked through the slide presentation by the makers and read a bunch of links. Its pretty well done but just doesn't ring true to me. There are always lots of surprises and unanswered questions when soemthing that has never happened before does happen. This is harder to discount that the "Martian Aliens implant New Messiah Clone in JFK's Dog"-type headlines in the old supermarket tabloids. I think it was an American politician that said "you can fool some of the people all of the time ....."

The thing is, conspiracy theories have accompanied every presidential assassination or terrible accident in the western world through the last 150 years or more. These ALWAYS get lots of believers. I was watching a TV show on the Smithsonian Museum collections the other day and they were talking about the then popular conspiracy theory that Lincoln had been assassinated on the order/plans by international bankers supported by elements of the military. They still don't know if it was Booth on his own or with a small cell of helpers, or perhaps revenge ordered by the cabinet of the Confederate states, which had just surrendered a few days before. Either is quite plausible; a cabal of international bankers (code for Jews?) - Nah.

Conspiracy theories are guaranteed to arise, as predictably as millennarian movements do amongst oppressed peoples. Something in human nature I guess.

[Schooled]

Interesting article MF4. I have a book in front of me, "The Assassins' Gate," that discusses this in great detail. It appears that absolute jaw dropping political infighting and arrogance resulting in no planning led to the sack of the museum, and much of the current Iraq disaster.

The US military, and Rummy, initially refused to be drawn into security arrangements for Baghdad since they felt they were there to defeat Saddam and then leave immediately. They did not want to be drawn into a long occupation, and part of the strategy to avoid that was not to plan for one. A list of sites to protect was drawn up by a committee charged with planning, but their recommendations were not passed on to the commanders in Iraq. This appears to have resulted in the troops on the ground having no orders to provide security or stop looting, or even maps showing where important buildings were. Perhaps that's why they shot and killed reporters in the Palestine Hotel.

The book is an excellent overview of the politics leading up to and into the war there, and is not the tabloid rant you'd expect from the title.

Also TGIAPFB this whole thread was started by the zeitgeist movie you link to.