3D, Graphene, New Age Board Design -Msg board thead saver

[KUS]

Windaddiction: here's a neat idea http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/170 ... r?ref=live - Saturday October 12, 12:25AM
Geoffy: - windaddiction, some marketing misleading stuff in there. Board weighs same as mine, replaces EPS - expanded polystyrene foam core (petrochemical) with ABS - acrylonitrile butadiene styrene (worse petrochemical) core. Lots of other things I disliked and rubbed me badly about his marketing, but outright misleading there. Concept could work with some of the things being developed using new (not commercial) additive manufacturing though. - Saturday October 12, 9:16AM
Kus: ...why not use wood? I love the hollow wood Pasta approach. "We know this works because it is how wings have been constructed for the last century" except there's not usually a 200lb guy landing on a small portion of the wing after a 15' jump among other things. I agree you need the right board for your body type, sailing ability, wind strength, swell, place you sail...you don't need a fancy data collector to provide this opinion for you....plus all those things are fluid if you move around or progress at all. Overly simplistic in the most uebertechnical sense possible. - Saturday October 12, 9:35AM
Kus: on that train, Pasta: wanna build a custom quad WS board out of wood? At current $2500MRSP tags, this might be a cool, profitable addition to your furniture output - Saturday October 12, 9:42AM
Windaddiction: I still liek the idea of a 3d printed board.... too bad there isn't a pirnter big enoguh to do a whole board one piece! - Saturday October 12, 5:44PM
Geoffy: There are folks working on printing materials made from wood fiber and soy-based resins, still compromised IMHO. Real breakthrough will be in carbon fiber from lignin waste (see Weyerhaeuser/Zoltek research) printed with soy-based urethane resin. And pretty easy to make a 3D CNC printer big enough to do windsurfers/SUPs, still not best technology match I think. - Saturday October 12, 7:06PM
Gwind: WoW, possibilities are endless, 3 D printers are just in there infant stage. Very cool Mr. Data - Saturday October 12, 7:57PM
Voodmon: In the olden days of windsurfers with teak booms, teak dagger boards and a teak universal plug we pondered this conundrum, just like the ancient Hawaiian surf boards were made of wood, perhaps we are coming full circle here. - Saturday October 12, 9:28PM
Kayakdoc: Graphene: Even though my latest board (The Phillet Mignon) is EPS/carbon/epoxy and weighs less than 5 lbs. this will be a behemoth compared to the next generation of board construction materials. If 3D graphene ever becomes commercially available I am in. “As of 2009, graphene appears to be one of the strongest materials ever tested. Measurements have shown that graphene has a breaking strength over 100 times greater than a hypothetical steel film of the same (incredibly thin) thickness, with a tensile modulus (stiffness) of 1 TPa (150,000,000 psi). However, the process of separating it from graphite, where it occurs naturally, will require some technological development before it is economical enough to be used in industrial processes, though this may be changing soon. Graphene is very light, weighing only about 0.77 milligrams per square meter. The Nobel announcement illustrated this by saying that a 1 square meter graphene hammock would support a 4 kg cat but would weigh only as much as one of the cat's whiskers, at 0.77 mg (about 0.001% of the weight of 1 m2 of paper). Graphene paper or GP has recently been developed by a research department from the University of Technology Sydney by Guoxiu Wang, that can be processed, reshaped and reformed from its original raw material state.....Lead researcher Ali Reza Ranjbartoreh said: 'Not only is it lighter, stronger, harder and more flexible than steel, it is also a recyclable and sustainably manufacturable product that is eco-friendly and cost effective in its use.' Ranjbartoreh said the results would allow the development of lighter and stronger cars and planes that use less fuel, generate less pollution, are cheaper to run and ecologically sustainable. He said large aerospace companies have already started to replace metals with carbon fibres and carbon-based materials, and graphene paper with its incomparable mechanical properties would be the next material for them to explore.” Might be vaporware and research PR hokum, but this looks like the real thing. Graphene honeycomb with graphene skins. Super stiff, gossamer light and bullet proof strong. Eco friendly as well, maybe (I always take that statement with a pinch of salt). Boards and kites will be measured in picograms. - Saturday October 12, 10:07PM
Geoffy: Ahh, Phil - Theory and dreams, great stuff. Graphene is the new nano, miracle fund raising material, next step beyond single-walled nano-tubes. No matter the ultimate tensile strength/stiffness attainable, we will still be captive to stress transfer, compression, shear, and minimum skin thicknesses brought upon by other factors. Back in 1992 we were making spacecraft truss structures with pitch graphite fibers with modulus of 120msi, close to that of graphene you noted. Some weird and funky things happen when wall thicknesses get uber-thin and you try to have hard points and joints. By the way, beryllium and magnesium are wonder materials also (beryllium kind of tough to work as it's seriously toxic and probably get you on government hit lists, but Mg ???) Ahh to have the playground and be able to make toys of some of these things buried in our minds, will be great someday. - Saturday October 12, 10:59PM
Kayakdoc: Geoff; Maybe we can open a shop in Maui. I know the perfect place. - Saturday October 12, 11:31PM
Windaddiction: Wow what an awesome week ahead!! If anyone has not checked out kickstarter and is board look at soem of the projects! It almost feels like a revolution where regular people with awesome ideas can make it happen! And I can watch the videos through the firewall at work awesome! - Saturday October 12, 11:36PM
Thankgodiatepastafobreaky: hey Kus. so far I can turn a tree into a bed and into good chaching very quickly compared to designing, building, shaping and glassing a hollow board. But I'm still in the design stage. I am holding out on the foam. Almost everyone keeps telling me I will have to go to foam soon, but I'm not so sure. I need to work some flex into the design since something has to give, and not my ankles. Light and rigid is ok but light and slightly flexible is a bit better. I have an idea for ribs with some give.. we will see..So I can apply this method to a windsurfer I suppose...but I need to 3D print me so the other one of me can just go to baja. - Sunday October 13, 12:08AM
Thankgodiatepastafobreaky: My browser was only showing the latest post from Kus, which I responded to, and then once it appeared there was all this talk of space age materials making me feel like a cave man - ha ha ha. Isn't graphine lighter than air? Might aid in jumping? - Sunday October 13, 12:16AM
Thankgodiatepastafobreaky: nice work Doc.. my second board with fins and deckpads and wax weighs 7.5 lbs. - Sunday October 13, 12:18AM
Gnarf: i'd be interested in in hearing more about the glass jobs on both those boards like how many layers of what weight of cloth as i am in the middle of glassing a board and still havent made up my mind on how heavy to go. - Sunday October 13, 7:51AM
Thankgodiatepastafobreaky: hey eric, I used 3.7 oz bottom, 3.7 oz top with another 3.7 around foot areas over 1/8th inch cedar over ribs and air. The perimeter stringer provides much of the strength. If I was going to try foam I'd be inclined to use the Starboard method with a central carbon reinforced stringer. - Sunday October 13, 8:32AM

[Geoffy]

- Kayakdoc - Maui shop intriguing, what price/kWh 3-phase power over there and would MECO bring it into house/shop or do folks use phase converters? Do you know if they give net-metering credits on industrial solar (they stopped last year I think). We're looking around and trying hard to arrange other matters to get there. Graphene and ultra-high mod carbon composite of interest to the folks high up on Haleakala too!

[nanmoo]

I don't know, that kick starter pitch was really high on sunshine, cotton candy, rainbows and unicorns, but really low on useful information.

[skywalker]

The trouble with light boards, is that I am fat. If I lost 10 pounds....Kdocs Phillet mignon would weigh -5lbs.

graphene eat your heart out.

[winddude]

Sounds a lot like hollow carbon fiber surf boards, http://www.avisosurf.com/ one of the first to mass produce them.

I had pondered it a few years ago for windsurfing construction. A few issues I saw: very high in cost, and the second was I don't think a hollow carbon fiber structure could with stand the impact of repeated jumping without some serious reinforcement and engineering. There's a lot more dynamic forces happening on a windsurfer, then surfboard, SUP or kiteboard.

[winddude]

The guy in the video also keeps saying he's going to simplify the process, and bring the sport to more people.
By charging 4-5k for a board? By creating a custom board for every variable of your skill, body type and where you sail? That sounds more complex then 2 or 3 boards for varying conditions...

[KayakDoc]

Gnarf - The layup for my Phillet Mignon is 4.9 oz carbon fiber and 4 oz s-glass, both top and bottom. I hot wired the blank from 1 lb. EPS billet. The board is stringer less. I used West System epoxy and modified it with Resin Research Additive F (a no no, but it worked out beautifully). My last two boards are stringer less EPS. I am dialing in the flex with the layups. Like it so far.

Pasta- As far as wood cores go, they do look nice and they are used in production boards. I think that a structural inner layer of light glass, carbon or kevlar would go a long way to reducing the necessary thickness of your wood layer.

Geoff- Most of the people I know that are heavily into solar in Maui are trying to get off the grid entirely. They want as little official involvement as possible. Lots of big shaping machines and CNC machines in small production houses so power options are there.

[frank]

hey boardbuilders...

i thaught i would pass on a new testing i did the last two weeks....to uv protect the epoxy and avoid having to coat it...like with 2part PU paint or else....
i added some awlgrip to my regular west system mix (just the awlgrip paint and not it's activator)....works great, cured great, give a slightly more flexible epoxy, self leveling is good...
i also tried with some filler (silica & high density), and also thinning it with acetone and lcquer thinner for paint rolling...all cured very well...

so now have a solid color epoxy, uv resistant....that won't scratch and show what's underneath... all in one step...
first project was in my new pimp ice box on the boat...now have an awlgrip finish fridg with leds, fan etc..
next project , my daughter want a new bodyboard, so will try it with that awlgrip-epoxy...
final project will be the boat deck antislip...after extensive testing!!!

any feedback...??
what are you using to uv protect your epoxy....?

[thankgodiatepastafobreaky]

The staff at Ind.Plast.Paints told me SB 112 and the Silvertip are both supposed to have UV protect in them.

[gnarf]

I like this thread. I went with double 4oz s cloth top and bottom, poly resin, pu blank from us blanks ,5 fcs fusion plugs so I have the thruster /quad option, and various carbon strips and patches just to make it look cool. Don't know the weight yet. Still have to sand it.As for UV I'm not too worried , it's the driftwood and the rocks that seem to destroy my boards.

[thankgodiatepastafobreaky]

this carbon fiber wet out is indeed a challenge frang! i have just epoxied all the thin ribs for the next board. it cuts well with nice scissors and then the least handling the better. it doesn't wet out like the glass so i found a base layer of epoxy brushed on the wood first underneath is enough to coax the epoxy through the black fiber mat from both sides. And I don't understand how this stuff can be so strong?