Wingfoiling Progression

[winddoctor]

How long is the fuse? If possible, perhaps going to shorter fuse or flattening the stab angle to give less front foot pressure? I played a bit with footstraps this summer but find it pretty difficult to nail the position for foot switches on foil and every foil has a different sweet spot for the straps. The jumping personally hasn't been as fun as windsurfing or kiting so far so I keep going back to strapless, I have to admit. Once I get to a full sinker board (tried my 38L twice in dying wind without luck), I'll need straps again. The crashes at high speed getting ready to pop/ jump strapped in have been...uncomfortable .

[Tsawwassen]

How long is the fuse? If possible, perhaps going to shorter fuse or flattening the stab angle to give less front foot pressure? I played a bit with footstraps this summer but find it pretty difficult to nail the position for foot switches on foil and every foil has a different sweet spot for the straps. The jumping personally hasn't been as fun as windsurfing or kiting so far so I keep going back to strapless, I have to admit. Once I get to a full sinker board (tried my 38L twice in dying wind without luck), I'll need straps again. The crashes at high speed getting ready to pop/ jump strapped in have been...uncomfortable .

Thanks Chris, I'll look into a smaller fuse, I hadn't thought about that. I know what you mean about the jumping, but when I see a ramp I get this urge to send it! It's not quite the same though is it! For sure the foot switch is sketchy, yesterday I had a few wicked crashes before deciding not to try that again! Think I might lose the straps again for a while, maybe like you said until I'm on a much smaller board. Thanks!

[AJSpencer]

I have same issue and think I have the longer hover glide fuse. Moments where it feels really good with front foot in and then a gust, or not, and I feel way far back and am foiling out. My normal balanced position has my front heel on the front foot strap with the front foot straps as far forward as they go. Same on the Slingshot Dialer I had and same on this Naish Hover I use now.

[Tsawwassen]

Interesting video on shims, maybe this will help but I can't seem to find any info on Moses shims. I'm assuming they are the same but this vid says the Armstrong V tail wing starts at -1 with no shim. Does anyone know what the Moses 450 starts at?
My Moses shims say .5, 1 and 1.5 but it doesn't say if it's positive or negative.

[monicavi]

Moses shims are designed to fit negative. I flipped my 0.5 around and trimmed to fit giving 0.5 positive. Which really took the edge off my 950 at high speed or in waves. Don't go more than 0.5 positive though, or it will get pitchy.

Shims will be the first thing to try. I think somebody logged that they added 1.5 degree of shim. That should have increased front foot pressure, but what it likeley did was add so much drag making speed more manageable and acting like a piece of seaweed on the stab which drops the nose.

I recently swapped out my huge 483 stab for the 330 kite stab. Huge increase in upwind and makes even head high drops into swell feel perfect. Before I would have been standing on my front foot. Just switching those stabs I had to move my mast 2.5" further forward in the tracks with the same 950 wing, fuse and 82 mast. So switching out for a smaller stab like the 399 might help.

The new Sab 700hs puts the front wing over 30mm closer to the mast. Which will bring your front foot back that much.

Then there's baseplate shimming, getting my wizard hat kit in a couple days. Probably more for dock starts and flat water sup pumping.

So 2.5" from the stab, probably 1" from the 0.5 positive shim, 1.5" from switching to the 700HS, and another 1.25" from drilling extra front holes in your mast plate and you can move the front foot pressure 6.75" back without moving the mast position.

[monicavi]

*without moving the mast bolts in the tracks, the mast will move whatever distance you drill the extra front holes.

[monicavi]

*Sorry, you'd have to drill extra rear mast holes. I've just been thinking about drilling new front holes which is something I'm likely going to have to do when my W800 and W1000 finally get here.

[Tsawwassen]

Moses shims are designed to fit negative. I flipped my 0.5 around and trimmed to fit giving 0.5 positive. Which really took the edge off my 950 at high speed or in waves. Don't go more than 0.5 positive though, or it will get pitchy.

Thanks for all the info Monicavi!

I think somebody logged that they added 1.5 degree of shim.

That was me.

[slake]

Wanted to revisit this thread. Just shy of year when I was getting a lot of helpful info from everyone here – thanks for that. Made a lot of progress since I last posted in April 2021. Wanted to share my experiences, and have a few gear questions. The stoke for wing foiling has only grown.

Current setup: riding a Fanatic 5'8" 110 L Sky Wing, Duotone 5 m Echo, 4 and 6 m Slicks, and Armstrong HS1850 with 72 cm and 85 cm mast – all A System. I’m 6’1”, 85 kg with a wetsuit. Most of my riding was on lakes (Nitinat, etc.) and about 5 days at RB/Gordons – maybe 50 days in total (lots of crappy wind, other than Nitinat). Really comfortable on foil now, riding switch, gybing on foil, tacking from switch (only reg. stance, working on goofy), and working on Heineken gybe...but it is mostly lake sailing, need to get into waves/swell.

Thoughts/experiences, in no particular order:

• Found the instructional videos here are super helpful - https://www.patreon.com/AlanCadiz (one pledges $7 / month for a new video and gets to see all the old videos).

• Waist leash – I’m using the NSI one to my board and wrist leash for the wing. I’ve disassembled a coil ankle SUP leash and used the exact same thin line seen here to attach to the waist:
  (in fact Big Winds mailed me the line, along with NSI waist leash). I doubled it up, don’t use a carabiner (ie. it is tied to the NSI waist belt). The thin line scares me as part of the system keeping me attached to my board but has held thus far.

• I developed wetsuit elbow holes (even one butt cheek is starting to wear) on a brand new Xcel 4.5/3.5 suit from falling in so much while learning and clambering back on the board. Going to repair with aquaseal + patches.

• Don’t know anything other than a boom on a wing. Not a former windsurfer (other than a few brief efforts), so not partial to it. One neat aspect of it is riding powered downwind. One can grab the boom with the leeward hand and in the right spot, almost, effortlessly stay powered up on a broad reach (someone at Nitinat nicknamed this the ‘Statue of Liberty’ stance). Also single, and even easier double handed, one can apply a moment on the boom that I don’t know if you can do with handles (ie. rotating it in the plane of the wing). I think one just gets used to what they use. I got used to booms.

• Only got a boat tow after the training wheels had come of using the wing and foil. Would have been helpful at the very beginning, but not so much after. Found the one tow experience a challenge as the tow line often went slack.

• Stuck the tail wing through a canopy twice, both times turning turtle. Both wings went to Paul Betts for repair. Canopy loses to foil, every time (as mentioned a few times upthread).

• Unlike kiting I can deal more easily with crappy wind conditions (ie. intermittent wind).

• Funny to hear how the Armstrong gear is future proof at the start of this (~2 min in):
  but now there is the A+ system. I need an upgrade jig and a new fuselage for new wings. At least there is some compatibility. I like the drilling video on the log: .

• Marty C. did a great repair on a ding (hit a buoy on a wipeout early on) and sold me some rail tape - https://www.rspro.org/collections/foil-rail-protection that I think has been pretty useful.

Gear questions:

1. I remember feeling overpowered at Nitinat at times with a 4 m. Saw someone out there on a 2.8 m. Are these small wings useful? Would a 2.5 or 3 m Slick be something to consider getting?
2. I want to try a smaller foil. I feel slow with the HS1850. Thinking of getting an HA1125. Any advice on size after a year on an HS1850? What about the rear foil? HA195?
3. If I get one of these new A+ System foils should I just convert all my gear to A+? Seems like my old fuse becomes useless. Lean toward just leaving the HS1850 and 72 cm mast alone (A System), and have an A+ System with the 85 cm mast that I'd drill through.
4. Boards – is there some advantage to drop size from 110L? Any suggestions on boards? Armstrong seems to have some new stuff, and a version with a handle. Sky wings will likely be cheaper. Is a 5’2” 75L or 85L board going to be a huge difference from 110L? Is that good as a next size down?
5. Any recommendations on different waist leash solutions?

I’m still super happy on my kit, but do want to go a bit faster and am curious about a smaller board. Unclear how to determine when new gear is really warranted. Only want to get other stuff if it makes sense. Thanks.

[chewy2]

Hello Slake,

Great discussion, I have read this form a few times as I am getting into wing foiling and it has helped immensely. I am hoping you, or others, can answer a few questions. I come from a windsurf and surf background although its been about 8 years since I have been windsurfing. The kids are teenagers now so I have time to get back into wind sports and wing foiling looks amazing. I weigh just under 80kg and got a 6m Slick to start practicing on land and on my SUP. I am thinking a 115L 5'8" board but am unsure on foils. I am looking at sizes and what others ride and want to get something that I will be happy with for awhile, guessing something in the 1900cm2 - 1600cm2.
Would 1600cm2 be to painful to start on or would I suffer/struggle for awhile but then not have to upgrade say from a 1900 to a smaller foil, or will a 1900cm2 be good for awhile?
Any other advice would be greatly appreciated.
Cheers
CHewy

[tweezer]

Hey Slake, Chewy,

I'll chime in with my 2cents:
Gear questions:
wing size for Nitinat/Victoria area: I use a 5m and a 3.5m and that covers most conditions. Many guys go with a 3 wing quiver (5,4,3m). The 2.8 or 2.5 is good in the 40 knot days.

foil size after an 1850: I use a 1430 for light wind days and a 1300 for heavier wind (15+). Some guys are going to a 1250, 950 combo. I'm 75kg. I'll let the armstrong users comment on specific armstrong foils. I'm using axis.

Mast length is commonly 85-90 cm for the RBFC crew.

Boards after learning on a 110l: I learned on a 115 for the first half dozen sessions and then went to a 90l and I'm still on that after a year and happy. Some guys are going closer to their weight in flotation for a smaller snappier feel and really like it. In the cold, I like the extra float to get out of the water faster. Smaller boards are definitely more fun and quicker turning. It takes 4 or 5 sessions to get used to a smaller board. gybing is harder, foot switches are harder.

Leash: I use a simple velcro waist leash for the board and wrist leash for the wing. Some guys prefer the reel leash.

Chewy - starter foil sizes: Yeah starting with a larger wing is easier. You don't need as much speed to liftoff, and they are more forgiving depending on the shape. Thicker lower aspect ratio shapes are liftier, forgiving at close to stall speeds, but slower. I started on a 1600 but that was after 2 seasons of windfoiling on 800/1000's. A 1500-1800 is probably a good range to start with. Then you'll probably want to shift to 1200-1500 as you progress into more wind and wave riding. If you are heavier you might stick to the upper ends of those ranges, and lighter riders or speedsters will want to go to the lower ends of those ranges for sure.

Cheers,
Mark

[bwd]

• Waist leash – I’m using the NSI one to my board and wrist leash for the wing.

I use the same NSI waist leash and two 4ft bungees, one forward to the wing (with a rotating clip on the wing), and one behind to the board (with the rotating clip on the belt). So far so good, and I never seem to get much of a tug on the board so I'm fairly confident it will hold. I'd probably use a coiled ankle leash if I was in real breaking waves though. I haven't tried a reel leash but lots of people seem to like them.

Gear questions:

1. I remember feeling overpowered at Nitinat at times with a 4 m. Saw someone out there on a 2.8 m. Are these small wings useful? Would a 2.5 or 3 m Slick be something to consider getting?

Yeah a 3m is great for 25+ kts. I'm thinking of getting a 2-2.5m in the fall for next winter since I get overpowered on my 3.1 in 30+.

[*]I want to try a smaller foil. I feel slow with the HS1850. Thinking of getting an HA1125. Any advice on size after a year on an HS1850? What about the rear foil? HA195?

If you have the 1850, then probably the next logical step is the HS1250 or the HA925. 1250 is much more user friendly but the HA has ridiculous glide, is fast and is really turny, but it's a bit more technical to ride, but I doubt you'd have an issue. Both will work on the 232 tail. The tail makes a big difference and I like the chopped 232 (=212). I just got the HA195 tail but haven't tried it yet. The v tail is great too and make both the HS/HA pretty loose feeling.

[*]Boards – is there some advantage to drop size from 110L? Any suggestions on boards? Armstrong seems to have some new stuff, and a version with a handle. Sky wings will likely be cheaper. Is a 5’2” 75L or 85L board going to be a huge difference from 110L? Is that good as a next size down?

Yeah smaller is good to a certain point. I'd look at the Quatro WingDrifter 90 or 80, or the Armstrong 75/88 but they are $$. Check to make sure the Fanatic has the box far enough forward for the HA foils. The Quatro is just forward enough and the Armstrong is way forward.

[slake]

Thanks for the feedback.

With the board-to-waist leash, maybe I stay with doubled up thin lines (it has worked thus far). It is simply the “look” of it that scares me. Compared to a regular leash string it’s maybe 1/4 of the diameter.

Sounds like getting a smaller wing would be good.

If getting an HA front foil why 925 over 1125 (I see there are 725 and 1325 sizes as well)? Armstrong’s pdf guide is out of date. It recommends 1125 for every weight and every sport. Glide and speed I’m keen on. Funny that it is really turny. Is that because you’ve ridden the 925? I thought one of the negatives of the HA’s was they are less turny and more challenging to ride (until you're gliding!).

Did you modify all your gear to A+?

Interesting about the mast tracks. I’ve heard this exact concern from a dealer. I ride the HS1850 mast smack in the middle of last year’s Sky Wing tracks. Googling turns up a couple of Seabreeze threads that really push the Armstrong FG board with the HA foils. Not sure how to resolve that one. Will try to dig around. Worst would be to have new Sky Wing board with a foil setup that doesn’t work on it because the track doesn't go far enough forward. That simple fact makes one consider spending more for peace of mind for the track.


Chewy,

I only know the HS1850 Foil Kit. Recommended on this forum. Recommended independently by a dealer I spoke to. A lot of push on this forum to get the 85 cm mast (so I did). There was a mix up on my delivery and I got the 72 cm, so I just went that and it was fine for lake riding. Eventually the 85 cm came but haven’t had a need to use it yet. I tried a lot to get a tow behind a boat, without success until after my first real foiling experience with the wing. I played around on land with the wing and on a SUP. Then eventually on a lake with foil wing board. Would get a drive upwind, drop off/put in, come downwind in a zig zag, pop out of the water, and repeat. Not foiling for many, many sessions. Really challenging with no hydrofoil experience. Balance was tough at the start. I stubbornly stuck at it. Even though I did not like the boat tow that I eventually got, I still think a session, or two, behind a jetski would be a great thing to do for someone starting out. Also recommend the HS1850 Foil Kit...I still use it.

[chewy2]

Hi Slake,

Thanks for the advice, I purchased a wing and a dagger board for my SUP and will start learning on that. I will look into the 1850 Armstrong, any recommendations where to purchase?

Thinking the learning curve will be steep but I am working on getting some boat tows.

Cheers
Chewy

[smartang]

As far as track placement goes, there's a lot of options to get more front foot pressure (FFP).

Baseplate shim

Add Tail shim

Decrease Mast length

Increase Tail size/lift

Increase fuselage length

Drill holes in mast

Ride faster: Here's Kane (about 190lb) on an HA725 with back foot over mast (the way it should be!) and mast toward the tail.



Track extensions: Here's James Casey showing how to mount a lift 120 with stock tail (KDmaui Tail will also increase FFP) on sup made for gofoil (highest FFP). Using aluminum track extender.



Ride waves: Here's Sky Rama on stock armstrong HA725 and 72cm mast. Again back foot over mast, and mast toward the tail.



I going to go watch some more foiling...