Sewage Treatment - Do we need it?
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grant
I hope my name shows up, it seems like maybe everyone is getting labled "guest"? I'll vote yes, I've had a few ear infections and illnessess that I'd like to blame on the sewage, but as Fish says, you can't prove it. And that's one of the problems with science, that you really can't prove much of anything untill it's really, really painfully obvious. One day it may become obvious that it wasn't smart to splash around right near the end of a pretty big sewer pipe.
I'll agree that the theory (thanks dwd) shows that the sewage is very dilute, and that the bacteria and viruses etc. are dead or nearly dead from hypothermia, but here's the deal: it stinks. It tastes bad. Furthermore, are we sure those heavy metals and industrial contaminants are dispersing as they should? Maybe they're dispersing right up your nose. You see we recreate right in that zone of mixing, which may be doing a great job of neutralizing all the bad stuff, except we go right out there and wipe out. Over and over. We kind of hang around in that volume of water that might be considered as doing the same job as a land based treatment plant. I don't think anyone would rig up and go for a burn around a treatment pond, but we sail right over the pipe mouth. Go for a slightly longer reach on a south west day and you'll find those fat-gobbling seagulls. If you mix fat with poo, and then let the fat float to the surface, I think it's still fat mixed with poo. Maybe it won't make you sick, but I wish the whole damn problem wasn't here in the first place. And it gets much worse when it rains, and the storm sewers let loose into the harbour and onto the shoreline.
Why do we sail near Clover Point? Because it's the only bit of beach with exposure to clean west wind. Kiteboarding on west wind is nearly impossible from anywhere else east of Otter Point.It's a serious bummer that it also happens to be the epicenter for turd dumping. No pun intended. What can be done? It seems like although the situation is tolerable (based on the fact that no sailors are yet dead ) I think most of us can agree it could be better. We might be able to make a case to get the outfall lengthened, based on the idea that it doesn't meet our needs as water recreators. Do they turn soccer fieds into landfills and tell the players to keep playing untill they get sick? If we can ever get off our apathetic arses, I think we should ask somebody to make the pipe a bit longer. Like about 10km longer.
I'll agree that the theory (thanks dwd) shows that the sewage is very dilute, and that the bacteria and viruses etc. are dead or nearly dead from hypothermia, but here's the deal: it stinks. It tastes bad. Furthermore, are we sure those heavy metals and industrial contaminants are dispersing as they should? Maybe they're dispersing right up your nose. You see we recreate right in that zone of mixing, which may be doing a great job of neutralizing all the bad stuff, except we go right out there and wipe out. Over and over. We kind of hang around in that volume of water that might be considered as doing the same job as a land based treatment plant. I don't think anyone would rig up and go for a burn around a treatment pond, but we sail right over the pipe mouth. Go for a slightly longer reach on a south west day and you'll find those fat-gobbling seagulls. If you mix fat with poo, and then let the fat float to the surface, I think it's still fat mixed with poo. Maybe it won't make you sick, but I wish the whole damn problem wasn't here in the first place. And it gets much worse when it rains, and the storm sewers let loose into the harbour and onto the shoreline.
Why do we sail near Clover Point? Because it's the only bit of beach with exposure to clean west wind. Kiteboarding on west wind is nearly impossible from anywhere else east of Otter Point.It's a serious bummer that it also happens to be the epicenter for turd dumping. No pun intended. What can be done? It seems like although the situation is tolerable (based on the fact that no sailors are yet dead ) I think most of us can agree it could be better. We might be able to make a case to get the outfall lengthened, based on the idea that it doesn't meet our needs as water recreators. Do they turn soccer fieds into landfills and tell the players to keep playing untill they get sick? If we can ever get off our apathetic arses, I think we should ask somebody to make the pipe a bit longer. Like about 10km longer.
Well said Grant! 
Yeah, when I look at the fact that there is an enormous financial cost of treatment ($300 million +), and also an environmental cost (different kinds) for primary and secondary treatment, it makes it tougher to just give an unqualified yes.
But relying to heavily on science is not consistent with the precautionary principle - if you wait until you have hard evidence of damage, it's already too late. Just like smoking and global warming. oops!
So, yeah, I think we should ALL be writing our city councilors (and especially now at voting time) and MP's MLA's and letting them know we don't like playing in that water. It only takes a couple of minutes to write an email.
Extending and improving the primary treatment outfall may be an excellent compromise, thanks for the suggestion and for weighing in Grant.
And thanks to everyone else as well, I really appreciate getting everyone's input.
Cheers,
Paul
Yeah, when I look at the fact that there is an enormous financial cost of treatment ($300 million +), and also an environmental cost (different kinds) for primary and secondary treatment, it makes it tougher to just give an unqualified yes.
But relying to heavily on science is not consistent with the precautionary principle - if you wait until you have hard evidence of damage, it's already too late. Just like smoking and global warming. oops!
So, yeah, I think we should ALL be writing our city councilors (and especially now at voting time) and MP's MLA's and letting them know we don't like playing in that water. It only takes a couple of minutes to write an email.
Extending and improving the primary treatment outfall may be an excellent compromise, thanks for the suggestion and for weighing in Grant.
And thanks to everyone else as well, I really appreciate getting everyone's input.
Cheers,
Paul
Vive et Ama
This is the website for the email of city councilors:
http://www.city.victoria.bc.ca/cityhall ... prof.shtml
email addresses for our MLAs:
for Victoria-Beacon Hill and
for Victoria-Hillside
MP: (David Anderson).
Might as well let them know. If we don't, who will?
And a short, well written letter from a constituent is 1000 times more effective than a form letter from a special-interest group, IMHO, from my civil servant experience.
http://www.city.victoria.bc.ca/cityhall ... prof.shtml
email addresses for our MLAs:
for Victoria-Beacon Hill and
for Victoria-Hillside
MP: (David Anderson).
Might as well let them know. If we don't, who will?
And a short, well written letter from a constituent is 1000 times more effective than a form letter from a special-interest group, IMHO, from my civil servant experience.
Vive et Ama
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kitesurferdale
- Posts: 394
- Joined: Sat Nov 22, 2003 11:28 am
- Location: Port Alberni
action time on poo
Its GREAT to see all the feedback on this....
I've been windsurfing, fishing, diving and (and now kiting) off victoria all of my life. I've had several minor ear infections, cuts that become infected, and one major illness,.. viral menagitis. This was 2 years ago...not fun.
My personal experience:
I've seen tampons, rubbers, pads etc by the bushel while scuba diving at the break water/ and off Oak Bay.
Pink plastic torpedos (tampons) are a favorite beach find for small children playing on any Victoria beach and Dicovery Island. Take a look at the high tide line.
Two weeks ago I had a wad of toilet paper caught on my downrigger ball while trolling for salmon off Clover Point.
On a calm days, at the end of the two main pipes, there is an oily "sheen" of fat (looks like gas). Any doubters are welcome to come in my boat for a free tour of the "end of the pipe",...this is less than a mile from our sailing spot.
Seagulls are at the end of the pipes 24/7 eating the poo fat.
5-6 years ago, a scientist (hired by the CRD on top secret operation ) called me for an interview.
He arrived at my office with a map of the waterfront showing sewer pipe locations. Questions ranged from our usage of the area (he was very interested if we sailed over the end of the pipe) and how many days a year/ hours per exposure, any illeness etc etc. At the end of the Q/A I asked him if he would go in the water of Victoria,...his answer....NO.
The water off Victoria is dirty and polluted. You can smell it, taste it,...and you can feel it on your body after a session. What is Victoria now,...250,000 to 300,000 people dumping all their waste in 180' of water ....day in day out,....come on!
Oh ya,....hospital waste, soaps, paint thinner, acetones, and other shit are OK to put in the sewer,....and are currently dumped by the ton into the ocean of Victoria...pure and unfiltered.
KC13
aka Richard M
PS Ocean Rodeo and Whites Mfg are arranging non CRD water testing. We'll let you know the results!!!
I've been windsurfing, fishing, diving and (and now kiting) off victoria all of my life. I've had several minor ear infections, cuts that become infected, and one major illness,.. viral menagitis. This was 2 years ago...not fun.
My personal experience:
I've seen tampons, rubbers, pads etc by the bushel while scuba diving at the break water/ and off Oak Bay.
Pink plastic torpedos (tampons) are a favorite beach find for small children playing on any Victoria beach and Dicovery Island. Take a look at the high tide line.
Two weeks ago I had a wad of toilet paper caught on my downrigger ball while trolling for salmon off Clover Point.
On a calm days, at the end of the two main pipes, there is an oily "sheen" of fat (looks like gas). Any doubters are welcome to come in my boat for a free tour of the "end of the pipe",...this is less than a mile from our sailing spot.
Seagulls are at the end of the pipes 24/7 eating the poo fat.
5-6 years ago, a scientist (hired by the CRD on top secret operation ) called me for an interview.
He arrived at my office with a map of the waterfront showing sewer pipe locations. Questions ranged from our usage of the area (he was very interested if we sailed over the end of the pipe) and how many days a year/ hours per exposure, any illeness etc etc. At the end of the Q/A I asked him if he would go in the water of Victoria,...his answer....NO.
The water off Victoria is dirty and polluted. You can smell it, taste it,...and you can feel it on your body after a session. What is Victoria now,...250,000 to 300,000 people dumping all their waste in 180' of water ....day in day out,....come on!
Oh ya,....hospital waste, soaps, paint thinner, acetones, and other shit are OK to put in the sewer,....and are currently dumped by the ton into the ocean of Victoria...pure and unfiltered.
KC13
aka Richard M
PS Ocean Rodeo and Whites Mfg are arranging non CRD water testing. We'll let you know the results!!!
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kitesurferdale
- Posts: 394
- Joined: Sat Nov 22, 2003 11:28 am
- Location: Port Alberni
I don't get it, I work in the tree industry, and if I go near someones tree to clear it from the hydro lines people go haywire, freak out and go political, never mind that contact with the power lines will kill back the tree, knock out power and endanger human lives. Victoria is one of the worst areas I have worked in with regards to sensitive people, yet as the previous post and all the other posts have stated, the dumping of raw sewage and other nasty stuff goes on right in front, in plain view of all. Why is it that one of our most beautiful cities, our provincial capital and arguably one of the biggest tourist draws in the province sees fit to blantantly pollute the water? Cost? holy @#$@ the province, fisheries, forestry, etc etc all go after companies if that company wishes to develop something that may damage or alter anything to do with the environment, why isn't our own muncipalities and goverenments held accountable to the same standards? Why do people tolerate this?
Airtime! whoo hoooo, its all about the airtime...... ok waves rock too!
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Ross
Here`s something for those of you who still visit the Gorge-
The Columbia River is the lifeblood of the Pacific Northwest, but it is a river in crisis. The demands on the Columbia River continue to increase as population and commerce grows, creating an increasing need for environmental protection. According to the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency, 1,048,853 tons of carcinogens are still directly discharged into the Columbia River each year, making the Columbia River one of the most contaminated rivers in the country for cancer-causing pollutants. Toxic pollution continues to run unabated into the Columbia's waters. Near the Tri-Cities, radioactive and chemical plumes at the Hanford Nuclear Site continue to impact groundwater and river water quality. Over 180 square miles of contaminated groundwater are a legacy of our neglect. A recent EPA/CRITFC scientific study found toxicity levels in many Columbia River fish significantly violate human health standards.
What we must do is to think of the future and what we will be leaving our children.
The Columbia River is the lifeblood of the Pacific Northwest, but it is a river in crisis. The demands on the Columbia River continue to increase as population and commerce grows, creating an increasing need for environmental protection. According to the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency, 1,048,853 tons of carcinogens are still directly discharged into the Columbia River each year, making the Columbia River one of the most contaminated rivers in the country for cancer-causing pollutants. Toxic pollution continues to run unabated into the Columbia's waters. Near the Tri-Cities, radioactive and chemical plumes at the Hanford Nuclear Site continue to impact groundwater and river water quality. Over 180 square miles of contaminated groundwater are a legacy of our neglect. A recent EPA/CRITFC scientific study found toxicity levels in many Columbia River fish significantly violate human health standards.
What we must do is to think of the future and what we will be leaving our children.
Turds in our water
My sentiments exactly Grant. I've said that for years- if you're not going to treat it, at least get it the hell away from shore. Extending the pipe would be the obvious choice, but I guess that most people figure if they can't see it, taste it or smell it then there's no problem. 
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It's me
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more force 4
- Sponsor
- Posts: 1457
- Joined: Wed Oct 15, 2003 8:57 am
- Location: Victoria, BC
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Heard Dr. Blatherwick (?) Regional D. Health Officer on the radio this am - he was talking about the only real risk at Clover being for divers - didn't here the beginning of the interview, don't know if he mentioned kiters/windsurfers. He did say that there was potentially really bad water conditions on beaches and near shore during storms -- from storm sewers. I got the impression he thought that no-one would likely be in the water during storms....!!
He and others are at a public meeting about this today at noon - I didn't catch where it was - maybe library? Hope someone from our community can go and report back.
He and others are at a public meeting about this today at noon - I didn't catch where it was - maybe library? Hope someone from our community can go and report back.
Hey KC13, I like the offer of taking people in your boat to see the fat slick and gulls (got my attention to almost hurling momentum, poop doesn't otherwise bother me much, got three kids and had big dogs, 
) But: how about taking pictures of this stuff or video footage....I mean we hear all this stuff but NOTHING's visual. A gull eating the slick wtih a backgrounder of the Olympics would have some more impact....even pix of the hundreds of condoms or plastic tampon stuff......btw, I find those often at the Nat so this ain't just a local thing but equally sad. And the TP on the downrigger?? Likely a pleasure boater dumping....
And the Gorge, thx Ross, hence my reference to that earlier in the thread. We still sail there...and how about Nicola Lake??? All that agricultural crap in there makes me puke too....Victoria is not an isolated issue and at least it's still mostly poop, not nuclear or carcinogenic
) But: how about taking pictures of this stuff or video footage....I mean we hear all this stuff but NOTHING's visual. A gull eating the slick wtih a backgrounder of the Olympics would have some more impact....even pix of the hundreds of condoms or plastic tampon stuff......btw, I find those often at the Nat so this ain't just a local thing but equally sad. And the TP on the downrigger?? Likely a pleasure boater dumping....And the Gorge, thx Ross, hence my reference to that earlier in the thread. We still sail there...and how about Nicola Lake??? All that agricultural crap in there makes me puke too....Victoria is not an isolated issue and at least it's still mostly poop, not nuclear or carcinogenic
Wish less, sail more!!
Vancouver Island Windsports
Chinook /Takuma /KA Australia
You're either in or in the way....
Doing things the hard way since 1963....
Vancouver Island Windsports
Chinook /Takuma /KA Australia
You're either in or in the way....
Doing things the hard way since 1963....
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jjjim
Oh man, this is getting gross. Remember the news stories finding that our Killer Whales are so toxified they're hazardous material? I guess that's what happens when you spend a lot of time in these waters. Meanwhile on tv they've got local officials telling us that their tests indicate that there is no problem. No problem if you spend your life behind a desk in a suit. Government and business team up to make big bucks abusing what is ours: not theirs.
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Ross
Richard and I just returned from the sewage forum at the library. Will post about it later (back at work now). They will be playing segments of it on 90.5 ( cbc?) tomorrow and Monday. Quite interesting to hear the many points of veiw. One particular thing was to hear scientist Jack Littlepage dismiss the need for secondary treatment and then to question the sources of information that the pro -treatment people used. Then he was asked what source he had for the cost of the sewage treatment plant ( he said 500 million +)and he replied " the Times Colonist". Now that`s a reliable source! Halifax ,which has more people, is looking at around 160 million for their plant.
Bottom line is pollution is bad and anything that we can do ,from treatment ,prevention ,conservation etc.. will help
Bottom line is pollution is bad and anything that we can do ,from treatment ,prevention ,conservation etc.. will help
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Ross
As for a previous post that said meningitis is a "kissing disease" ,a quick google seach found this-Coxsackie
These viruses are the commonest causes of viral meningitis and they can be found in the intestines of humans, and therefore in faeces and sewage-polluted water. Most cases occur in the summer months.
These viruses are the commonest causes of viral meningitis and they can be found in the intestines of humans, and therefore in faeces and sewage-polluted water. Most cases occur in the summer months.
