Wingfoiling Progression

General discussions about wingfoiling: equipment, tips, problems, where to go, where you should have been, pump safety.
User avatar
smartang
Posts: 145
Joined: Thu May 10, 2012 10:25 am
Been thanked: 12 times

Re: Wingfoiling Progression

Post by smartang »

Windfoil boards have the tracks way too far back. I've ridden three 7'ft plus wingfoil boards with the tracks too far back and the nose weight is hard to control in gybes. Coming from kitefoiling on a 5lb 4ft board I still always found smaller boards easier to gibe, but you have to keep your speed up. Beginners rarely do. Better to sheet in for speed, bear off downwind, and just let it glide, then complete the turn or not. Most foils will glide for 25-30m according to wake theif. No need to rush.

I used to bunny hop, it works ok on bigger boards and more stable higher front foot pressure foils like Tweezer's axis. But your feet have to be closer together before the hop. Most strapless riders ride with their feet closer together and more offset than strapped riders. Even the shuffle works for some, but neither the hop or shuffle are consistent at high speeds. You just need to ask, what would JH do?

See the slow speed strap to strap from the best starting at 3:20 and especially 4:17. Small board, full on race foil with a long mast.

User avatar
winddoctor
Website Donor
Website Donor
Posts: 1118
Joined: Wed May 28, 2003 8:57 am
Location: Near Kook st.
Has thanked: 5 times
Been thanked: 19 times

Re: Wingfoiling Progression

Post by winddoctor »

JH is so damned smooth. Looks like his strap to strap jibes/foot switches have his front foot pressure at least close to the neutral pitch/lift of the foil. My Quatro/Armstrong set up needs a few more cm of foil box forward than I can get to have my feet properly positioned for neutral feeling foot switches with straps, so I ride unstrapped currently with front foot just a little way behind the aft most front strap inserts, otherwise the nose dives too much for a relaxed foot switch. I find even on my Armstrong board that I need my mast 80% of the way forward to make the holes useable for straps. Some other Armstrong foil users with Quatros report standing too far forward for the strap holes to be useable, which is strange to me. Tail shimming can affect where you stand but it doesn't make enough of a difference for me on the Quatro. What's going on here? How much of this issue is a function of my weight and height (6'5", 200lbs dry)? I really want to jump more but get annoyed with switching and crashing with my feet in poorly positioned straps.
Poultry in motion
User avatar
smartang
Posts: 145
Joined: Thu May 10, 2012 10:25 am
Been thanked: 12 times

Re: Wingfoiling Progression

Post by smartang »

First off, I know Winddoc and Tweezer are far better freeriders than I am. With 3 babies, I don't get out much. But I research the truck out of this stuff while the making sure the toddlers don't kill eachother. I also had a solid big air and unhooked kiting background. A full speed takeoff on a wing is probably more critical than a megaloop, so even if you're only going 10ft, it's a stimulating jump. And waid till your board come off mid air, and you're looking down at the point of a HA foil right under you. Now that's stimulatingly!

That neutral stance is the reason I stay away from armstrong. To get the right amount of front foot pressure that I like I need to add way too much stabilizer. As the progression project put it in his last couple podcasts, he's liking the added FFP foil for powered groomer type carves.

Here's the problem with jumping, if you want to get any real height you'll be full power. Better suited to Nitinat type conditions. KD maui said he was thrown off by what the euro comp guys are riding. Bigger boards for quick start (other than Titouan), tiny foils and huge wings. Like 6m in 20 knots (5m in 30, 4m in 40) if you really want to launch like Titouan's 10m wing jump. So not the best setup for swell riding. KD maui also recommends a 70cm fuse for winging, which will help with front foot pressure and high speed stability.

I noticed that most of the guys in the RBFC videos have very narrow stances. Which is all the rage in pumping, but no good for takeoffs. Time to get out a sharpie, mark the front and back of your mast. Back strap should be centered on the trailing edge further toward the tail for more toward the tail.

Here's a jumping stance:

https://www.wingfoilworldtour.com/wp-co ... rdenas.jpg

Checkout Titouan's stance at 24s he's the tallest top winger, but still not 6'5". I'm also 200lbs, but only 5'10 :cry: and I need much more FFP than my winging buddy who's the same height but 30 lbs lighter.



So with your back foot at least on the TE of the mast, go out lit (as much wing as you can hold down) on your 925 with the 70cm fuse. Figure out where your front foot needs to be to stop from blowing up. Try again centered on the mast, and completely behind the mast. Try again with a 0.5 degree shim. Figure out where your front foot need to go. Remember, you back foot will be centered on the board in straps, which is another new feeling to balance out.

You might want to size up the tail. I towed a lift 120 back to back with both the 26 carve and 33 carve tails. The 26 was much faster, but the 33 had just the right FFP to push against at my weight. While my 30lb lighter buddy felt it was too stiff.
User avatar
winddoctor
Website Donor
Website Donor
Posts: 1118
Joined: Wed May 28, 2003 8:57 am
Location: Near Kook st.
Has thanked: 5 times
Been thanked: 19 times

Re: Wingfoiling Progression

Post by winddoctor »

Thanks for that, Smartang. Yes, a larger tail would be helpful most likely. Sadly I've chopped most of mine already for better speed/turns but at some expense of FFP as you say. The HA tail I just got has been amazing for speed/glide/turning and lift, but it's small. I'd love to see a larger version of the HA195 come out. The 70 fuse at this point is not of much interest but I should try one before making up my mind. In fact I've ordered a 50 cm to loosen up the 1125 and my mid aspect foils, so I'm sort of biasing the rig for turning performance. Makes sense that the 70 would get my front foot in a better spot for straps though. What I do like about the more neutral feel of the Armstrong is that it doesn't try to blow you up dropping into swell or when hitting speed spikes. I haven't ridden too many other systems so I don't really know better anyway :D . The Axis foils I've tried so far (small sample size) felt a bit stiff in the turns for my liking but I'm sure some tuning would have changed that. I did feel the larger FFP on them though. Will keep your tips in mind! 8)
Poultry in motion
User avatar
smartang
Posts: 145
Joined: Thu May 10, 2012 10:25 am
Been thanked: 12 times

Re: Wingfoiling Progression

Post by smartang »

I get it. Jumping on a wing looks cool on instagram but it's not worth the restrictions of using a rear strap alone. Unfortunately the lake and inlet conditions don't make rideable swell that often, so jumps keep it interesting.

Did a deep dive into armstrong yesterday as I am looking into the 1525 for pumping, and 925 for all around surf. And the pitchyness at higher speeds (on the 1125) that a lot are noting just wasn't making sense. The front wing is plenty big, the angle of incidence can be tuned. The front wing is even quite a bit further in front of the mast than my sab, so it's got leverage. But still it's back footed. Better for staying down and turning in the surf, but not ideal for race, jumping or xxl tow.

Some are saying that no matter how much negative they put on the tail they can't increase the FFP enough. I suspect it's the mast/fuse connection. A big ball of carbon abruptly dropping to a thinner tail section must be creating some sort of drag. I've noticed even a thin blade of grass at the bottom of my mast makes my foil pitch down at speed. Looked at all the race foils out there and every one has a sleek fuse.

Armstrong fuse lengths are misleading too. A 60 is actually 67 foil length (with the 1325) according to wake theif. My Sab foil length is only 63.5, and a thinner foil, so should be more pitchy. So a 70 at 77 foil length is too much for swell at a higher skill level.

Looking forward to towing one back to back against other HA foils to figure this out.
User avatar
Tsawwassen
Website Donor
Website Donor
Posts: 274
Joined: Tue May 17, 2011 3:56 pm
Has thanked: 27 times
Been thanked: 13 times

Re: Wingfoiling Progression

Post by Tsawwassen »

Thanks for the videos and tips guys. I finally nailed some foot switches after watching the Gunnar and Johnny Heineken ones. Super stoked!
slake
Website Donor
Website Donor
Posts: 58
Joined: Thu Jan 28, 2021 9:18 am
Has thanked: 7 times
Been thanked: 4 times

Re: Wingfoiling Progression

Post by slake »

My other half has been winging (not foiling) on an iSUP (with glued on sUP WINDer). I'm trying to get her a tow before combining the wing with the foil, something I didn't manage. Anyone know any tow options around (Duncan-to-Victoria area)? I have an Armstrong tow rope expressly for this. Been trying to rent a jetski but the folks I found aren't in the water yet because of the weather. Prices I found are $130/hr to rent locally (Shawnigan Lake) and $150/hr at Nitinat for tow/lesson.

I have to ask for some clarity, but it was suggested to me she learn on a Gong board. I think because, perhaps, inflatables are more forgiving on crashes/scissor wipeouts. I learned on a 5'8" 110L Fanatic Sky Wing + Armstong HS1850. She is less than 60 kg so my gut feeling is that board will be super buoyant for her and not bad to learn on (some towing first would help). Have others used inflatable wing foil boards with peeps that might not be as 'into' wind/water sports? Or for learning? Not sure if she'll be more apt to these scissor wipeouts, or not. I don't remember a ton of them but I'm sure it happened.
slake
Website Donor
Website Donor
Posts: 58
Joined: Thu Jan 28, 2021 9:18 am
Has thanked: 7 times
Been thanked: 4 times

Re: Wingfoiling Progression

Post by slake »

Still using my 110L board when conditions are marginal and need to float around in lulls. If it is windy, I pretty much always use an 88L that seems neutrally buoyant (I should try to weigh myself with a wetsuit on, but without I'm 84 kg right now). Thinking about a smaller board for windy days this summer. Is progressing to a smaller board overhyped? Saw this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f-pjLPTLZLM . Seemed interesting. Any advice, if going smaller, whether a 72L or 60L would be better? I lean to a 72L but I'm on the fence of whether a smaller board would be of any benefit.

From my previous post (Jun 12 last year): the other half did do some towing on the 110L and is getting on foil some, just not confidently going upwind. Luckily no bad crashes. For her weight the 5'8" Sky Wing and HS1850 is a pretty good setup/easy to get on foil combo, IMO.
User avatar
smartang
Posts: 145
Joined: Thu May 10, 2012 10:25 am
Been thanked: 12 times

Re: Wingfoiling Progression

Post by smartang »

72L is too close to 88L. You don't need both if you're still going to use the 110L in lighter conditions. I'd go 60L if you're going to keep the 88L. Depending on what you call 15-20. knots you should be able to use a 60L in that amount of wind. 88L 10-15kn. 110 below that.

I only know one lady winger. 60kg or less. And she had a hard time on boards bigger than 80L and foils bigger than a lift 170ha. Too much swing weight/lift. Once she's past the taxi up and first glides phase, I'd consider the 88L and a smaller foil. Body weight has a much bigger influence than on winging than most people realize. A 10kg difference is easily a full wing, foil and board size difference for the same lift. And full winter neoprene/ppe can easily get you 10kg over boardshorts.

I'm 100kg fully geared up. On a ~55L and 800cm2 foil most of the time. 90L and 1300cm2 in the 8-15 range. One thing to keep in mind is board weight matters. A 60L board should weigh about 10lbs or less, if it's coming in closer to 13-15lbs then there's no benefit to going smaller. The only other factor that I've noticed is board width and windage. When riding my 27" wide 90L in higher winds, I notice resistance when pointing upwind. And the rails touch more often.
Sunny and Windy
Posts: 2
Joined: Fri Jul 28, 2023 6:10 pm

Re: Wingfoiling Progression

Post by Sunny and Windy »

Hi - I am a kiter wanting to add winging to my portfolio.
I am looking for gear but stuck on which wings to buy. I had tendinitis issues with kites that needed a lot of bar pressure. I am hoping to avoid this issue with winging.
With the range of experience out there I am hoping someone can recommend which wings/ brands/type of boom etc I should start off with ....please and thank you.
User avatar
smartang
Posts: 145
Joined: Thu May 10, 2012 10:25 am
Been thanked: 12 times

Re: Wingfoiling Progression

Post by smartang »

Look for wings geared toward upwind performance at a sacrifice of low end. The newer the better. Pair that with a fast high volume board to reduce resistance on takeoffs and will let you ride smaller inflatable wings. And a high lift low drag foil set.

None of this gear is really meant for beginners, but they're the best for tendonitis. Even lit up, my North Mode has very little 'bar pressure' compared to my V1 Strikes. You'll probably want a harness, but can't really use one (won't make sense hooking in for 3 seconds before you crash) until you're competent on the wing.

I find kiting was worse for tendinitis as you have more flex at the elbows when working the kite in light wind. If you have good grip strength in your hands you can almost let the wing hang off your fingertips arms extended. And all of the gear above will reduce the number of pumps it takes to fly. Less movement at the elbows.
shadymorels
Posts: 4
Joined: Sun Jun 20, 2021 8:47 am

Re: Wingfoiling Progression

Post by shadymorels »

Hi folks, long time lurker on bwd, first time poster, located in Victoria.

I'm a surfer, but I've been watching wingfoiling from the sidelines for a few years now. Today I finally got my setup. I went with beginner Gong gear to get going (6'6" Gong Hipe First, 5m wing, 2100 foil).

I'm pretty stoked to get going, and I'll be eyeing up my first session this week (wind permitting). No prior wind sport experience, but about 20 years surfing on Vancouver Island. Also stoked to no longer fear, but embrace the old SE wind that blows out Jordan River on some of the best days.

My plan is to just get into the water ASAP and start figuring it out. I've accepted that I will struggle for a while, I bought some bigger gear in preparation for that. Wind direction permitting, is Willows Beach a decent spot to start learning? I'm planning on going out on an onshore or cross shore wind day so that I don't blow out in to the strait, but otherwise....is there much more to taking the first steps?

I will gladly accept any other advice that you folks may be willing to share, while scouring this megalithic thread for more info.

Cheers!

Tom
User avatar
tweezer
Contributor
Contributor
Posts: 69
Joined: Wed May 14, 2003 8:57 am
Location: Victoria
Has thanked: 25 times
Been thanked: 28 times

Re: Wingfoiling Progression

Post by tweezer »

Hey Tom!
Welcome to wingfoiling! The spot guide https://bigwavedave.ca/sailing-guide.html is a good general guide for all the local spots and the best wind directions/tides etc for each spot. The summary for Victoria is:
westerly - Ross Bay or Willows. Willows is flatter generally, but gustier on a west. Ross Bay can get a little lumpy and the inside is also a bit gusty. Both spots have a decent beach to walk back to windward.
Esquimalt lagoon is nice if the wind is more SW. Tons of sand beach and relatively flat water. On a SE, willows is probably the best spot for learners. Island View is also nice on a SE, if the tide and shore break aren't raging.
Of course Nitinaht is the closest premiere spot to learn any windsport - steady winds, warmer water.
You'll need minimum 15 knots to get started.
We'll look forward to meeting you at the beach. Introduce yourself - lots of friendly and helpful sailors here on BWD and at the beach.
Cheers,
Mark
shadymorels
Posts: 4
Joined: Sun Jun 20, 2021 8:47 am

Re: Wingfoiling Progression

Post by shadymorels »

Thanks, Mark! Appreciate the info.

I will definitely introduce myself when I start scoping out some sessions. Sounds like a great community!
User avatar
AJSpencer
Website Donor
Website Donor
Posts: 207
Joined: Sat Jun 22, 2019 7:18 am
Has thanked: 64 times
Been thanked: 9 times

Re: Wingfoiling Progression

Post by AJSpencer »

Don’t look TunaCan directly in the eyes yet though. lol
Post Reply