Thought I would start a thread rather than follow up on the bulletin board.

The quote I gave last night from Windsurf magazine

"I can't leave it unchallenged when light winds are used as a reason to take out a kite over a windsurfer. I'm out white-knuckling on my 11.8 m sail, jumping boat wakes in 10 mph before the kiters even get their pumps out. Can't quite pull a forward. You need 12 mph for that!"

wasn't an anti-kite statement. Just that light wind advantage for kites isn't what it used to be. If I had the money, I'd buy a board like the '06 Stbd Aero which at 127 litres is being plugged as a wave board, with great manoeverability. HiFly Maddsof the last couple of years had that reputation, but the 06 Madd 138 is 'more lively' than past versions with a much curvier shape and with twin fins you don't have to wade out to neck deep to start them. That is advertizing hype, of course, but I read a lot of real sailor's accounts of surf-sailing and jumping the Madds, so it seems possible.

I would bet you could have a really good two-board system for almost all conditions - something in the 130 l range to get you going in the 9 to 15 kt range, and a 90 l board for 15-30. You'd probably want a really small board for the 25+ kt days, but how often does that happen? Under 10 kt, the kites are limited by the chance of the wind dropping and the kites falling. If you could be planing fast and making slashy turns on a windsurfer in these conditions, I don't think there would be a reason for most windsurfers to switch to kites for purely performance reasons.

However, the kites certainly have the advantage in size for storage and transportation. They look like a lot more fun in the 12-15 kt range, although I've never seen a modern sailboard and rig like above to compare. There is now a decent used market for kites, and it probably costs 1/3 or less for a used kite and board compared to buying a new board and big sail to get the same performance in the same wind.

Whattya think?

slogging around in perfectly steady 10-14kn winds at CB, Nat or LaVentana has me sold ....watching Mattdog for 4 hrs or Mr. Unknown at Centennial within the weed fields as all others watched for 2-3 hrs last week has pushed me over to the edge. Now the question is if my knees, back and wallet can handle another sport, but what the hell, this ain't a dress rehearsal and one day watching and freezing your ass is one too many. Throw in juggling family, work and paying rising gas prices to get there I'll be damned if I go home dry.

BTW I doubt anyone can slash and waveride with not so much a 130L board but a sail over 6m, sorry but this ain't happening, it's not a function of volume. Sail size goes up exponentially in marginal conditions and if ya can't pump on a plane with a formula board and a 9m sail, your "new" board ain't gonna make it. Mind you I suppose the kite may fall outta the sky too, I'm about to find out

Okay, so first try, strike one today. I might have tried to get a desperation sail in with a 7M and a big board but kiting was outta the question today....at least during my 2+ hr handout.

For me, in the 12-15kt range and from what I've seen (too many times at Dallas Road) I would much rather be on a kite. If we had a place with consistent light wind wave sailing then it would be different, but most 12-15kt days are flat. That limits the amount of things I can do on the water since I'm not much of a freestyler. I'm not too excited about going fast and anything bigger than a 5.8, for me, isn't much fun.

So why haven't I bought a 12m yet? Well I've seen so many people buy a kite for the light wind days and then end up quiting windsurfing forever. It makes sense that starting a new sport would be exciting as you are learning and progressing every day. I think a lot of people reach a certain stage in windsurfing and kind of reach a plateau and it takes a lot of effort to progress further from there. I'd hate to quit windsurfing now since there is still so much to learn (loops, vulcans etc).

Doing both makes the most sense (12-20 kite, 20+ windsurf) or whatever. But that would sure take a lot of gear and time. But someday (maybe soon) I might take a kite lesson...
dave

The low wind windsurfing theory sounds good but I don't see it in practice. At CB windsurfers seem to wait for 20 knots to go out. I'm powered and doing 15 foot airs on a 12m in 12 to 18 knots. Im amazed at the greater wind range one kite has - 12 to 25 knots, which means even less gear. 3 kites and maybe two kiteboards covers everything down to 8 to 10 knots. With the new high projected area kites, I think two kites will nicely cover 10 to 35 knots (6 sails?).
Above 30 knots I think windsurfing is probably more fun (and safer) and you can probably surf the waves better.

Yeah, but Mattdog, did any of the windsurfers at CB have light air equipment with them? (OK, there probably wasn't room with the other gear they probably had).

Those 3 American guys camping out of their Maule amphibian and kiting at Nitinat summer before last cetainly showed the gear advantage.

Like windsurfing, the more time a kiter spends on the water, the more picky they get. Again for alot of us, going out and slogging(going straight downwind) is not really the type of conditions that we are looking for. Most kiters are good in the 12-28 knot range(and there is lots of that around here). Again, pushing the really light winds requires a whole new set of equipment, and for most of us, it's not that much fun.

Time to contribute while I wait for some wind ....

The new high projection area kites (e.g. OR One) have me interested in the sport. With this new breed of kite I wonder if only one 12m kite would be needed and only one board? Plus, the de-power seems way safer than today's kites. I am a wanna-be-minimalist and the kite gear sure lines up with that. Could put things in a car rather than a van.

The worry I have about kiting is what happened to me snowboarding. Kiting is reportedly easier to master than windsurfing. Sort of like snowboarding compared to skiing. I was only stoked on snowboarding for the first 2 "learning" seasons, then I got bored. In a recent Robby Naish interview he indicated that he was moving back to windsurfing because kiting was not challenging him enough. However, how many local kiters have moved back to windsurfing. I don't know of any...

What if most windsurfers move to kiting - will there be enough room. Will we start getting surfer attitudes?

I was contemplating getting a new quiver of windsurfing sails. Then, SuperDave suggested that if I had a single thought of kiting I should hold off on buying more windsurfing gear. Good advice I think.

The dark side beckons ...

The 'ONE' kite or similar makes it possible to use just 1 kite. I have tried it @ I'm convinced. However as kiters we do have days with 0 wind on the beach & a wind further out. On those occasions a w-surfer can catch the puffs and drift out to the wind for a session...('Bobson" on his equipment for ex.) While kiting is quite 'dynamic' in light winds & up, it does require steady wind in the light sessions to avoid the dreaded 'Hindenberg'. And as to kiting being 'easy to master' it depends on the level of commitment & equipment/conditions. While I can launch/land & cruise upwind on my kite gear, after 5 years I am FAR from mastering the sport. Nor after 20 years am I a master w-surfer....Just a middled aged guy who likes to go for a 'cruise' !!!

I'm wondering if the new w. gear has really been tried out around here? There are the FW boards, of course, but they are a beast that is really best for upwind/downwind racing. Few people want to freeride them, unless it is to get on a plane in 8-9 kt when nothing else will. There are lots of Starts and Gos and other monster boards mostly geared to beginners - and often much wider than they need to be. I haven't seen any local sailors buy a 120-140 l board that is really suitable for advanced sailors in that 10-15 or 18 kt range I think we are mostly interested in.

Good post MF4. Some interesting replies so far.
I think it depends on the person as to which sport you prefer to practice in light winds. It's a matter of what gets your adrenaline pumping. Some like big air, some get off on doing freestyle tricks and others have a need for speed. If you need to bust big air or carve a wake to get your fix then obviously kiting is the way to go. If speed is your thing then flat water blasting on a windsurfer is the ticket. Because of kiting and widebodied windsurfing boards, there is now something for everyone. You just have to choose your preference. Theoretically, we can all sail in under 12 knots (with the right gear). The question is......do you get a rush from it???

For me, I would prefer to go out and putz around in a light breeze than sit on the beach and wait. If I'm planing, I'm getting a rush. MAybe I'm easy to please but that's really all I need to get the blood pumping. Waves and high wind are just icing on the cake.

When I'm on vacation, I generally spend a good portion of time on the water - planing or not. TOW is TOW, it all helps. At the cottage, I'll spend hours tooting around on an old Dufour with a big baggy sail and a tie on boom just to get out on the water. I even went out one time without a fin (couldn't find it), just for the challenge. I spent 2 hours on the water that day trying to plane with just a centreboard. Not much adrenaline pumping but it's all good practice. I know lots of people who would rather sit on the dock with a cooler of beer but for me, I'd rather be on the water (and drink the beer later ).

It's amazing how much this kind of "practicing" can affect your regular sailing. I nailed the first few heli-tacks I tried in planing conditions due to the fact that I'd done hundreds of them in non-planing conditions. For me, the enjoyment of lightwind sailing is derived from the challenge that it presents - I've got 7 knots and an old longboard, what can I accomplish??

In town, it's a different story. Like most people, I don't generally go out until it's at least 15 knots, and that's fine with me. If I could get my fix in anything less, I would never get any work done! That's why I don't kite!

What was I thinking [smilie=axe.gif] ?

Kiting is actually horrible. Windsurfing Rules ...

Well, this PM sail, I was off the beach and back to it about the same time as the kites. They were def. outperforming my rig though, until the wind picked up a notch to maybe 13 kt, then I was planing and no longer jealous! I never have been big (read I'm pretty wussy) on jumps, on skis, bikes, or sailboards (though I'm working on unsticking), so I don't think I'd enjoy the jumps the kites get enough to switch. As soon as I'm planing fast and skipping over a few small waves, the adrenaline kicks. I do love the carving turns the kites can do and the way they can play in the waves in the shallows.

I think I'm like W247 - I would rather be on the water slogging (and maybe trying some low wind tricks if I could steel myself to fall in unnecessarily if its cold) than sitting on the beach. I'll sail a longboard if the wind is light and there is nothing else around, and still have fun. I'd definitely kite if I was travelling somewhere and it was the only alternative!

I figure a meter larger sail and a more modern board than the 1990 - ish 107 l Adagio probably would have been planing the whole time today. I managed one uphaul when the wind was too light to waterstart, but it was pretty sketchy - a floatier board would sure help that. Bobson would have ruled today for speed and TOW!

The 7.5 sail has really reduced my skunk rate. It gets me planing when a 6.0 would be dead. It is my most-used sail - in fact, looking at the log stats, the sail size is almost perfect downward line for size vs useage.

I agree. Bobson would have rocked today. An 18 m. kite would have been fun as well !!! How about a 16 M 'ONE' ? It's range would eliminate 'fear factor' !!! (I get nervous out on big kites when the wind goes up by 3x)

OK, I'll bite. The "One" kite has been mentioned several times. Why are they so rangey and why do they eliminate the fear factor?

Okay, I'm feeling pretty crappy that I didn't get out today....it looked perfect for Big Gear most of the day but my body was waaaay to sore to attempt sailing.....anyways, enough snivling and back to the subject....

I love planing!!! If I'm not planing and it's not a sunny day at the lake then I'm not really having fun, period. It the speed I get the rush out of. When I'm sailing fast(on big or small gear) it's the most fun thing I've done. When I'm on smaller gear(100L board and <6.0m sail) it's edge of my seat thilling!! When I'm on bigger gear(Formula-type board and 8.5+ sail) it's just plain F-U-N ! ! ! ! I love going where I want and not being worried about getting back or ending up in the water for long periods of time thus the 3/2 suit. So what I'm saying is FUN for me is planing TOW end of story...schlogging isn't much fun as I'm not a trickster.

What I do enjoy is sailing with others, that is why I'm all about getting others into the BIG GEAR!! So if anyone wants to sail with me and is considering purchasing BIG GEAR, let me know as I can get you out on some of my BIG GEAR and then I'll have more cruizing buddies. Staying dry and warm rippin' along at 40km/h on BIG GEAR is easy sailing and soooo much flippin' fun......'FOR ME'.

YOU DECIDE WHAT'S F-U-N FOR YOU!!!!