Universal foil mast

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grantmac
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Universal foil mast

Post by grantmac »

https://projectcedrus.com/

This is a "universal" foil mast being produced by a former Boeing composites engineer based in the Gorge. It can be adapted to almost any fin box or foil fuselage. He already has Moses and Slingshot adaptation.
The leading and trailing edges are PVC moldings for extreme impact resistance and to prevent cuts.

Personally I love the idea and I'm really surprised that LP isn't using them for mast production.

-Grant
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Post by john m »

I wonder how well it works with hoverglide and would you get a carbon fuselage?
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Post by grantmac »

He has an adapter for the Slingshot fuselage. Or it's possible you could modify your Slingshot fuselage to bolt right on. His mast uses two bolts in stainless steel helicoils.

There aren't any plans for him to offer fuselages, plus it seems that most companies are sticking to aluminum or titanium anyway because carbon just doesn't work that well for a fuselage.
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Post by juandesooka »

Love the idea too, but carbon toys = $$$$$$$

$1000US+ for a mast and fuselage is way (WAY) out of my price point comfort zone.
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Post by grantmac »

Thats roughly the cost different between the aluminum and carbon mast versions of most foils.
If it offers enough buoyancy for my foil setup to float added with the extra stiffness and durability that would be worth it to me. I've had a foil sink in what was fortunately shalow enough water to recover it.

-Grant
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Post by juandesooka »

Are you using a stick on foil mount? If so, i think I'd recommend a tether attached to something solid on your board, in case it let go. That's a much cheaper flotation device if that's your main goal. ;-)

Stiffness: I am relatively new to the carbon mast thing, but the gofoil carbon mast has more play / less stiffness than the slingshot aluminum. In surfing segments, riders seem mixed on if they prefer super stiff or like some flex (more lively feel, like a poly surfboard).

Durability: aluminum can bend, though can also be bent back ... carbon can snap ... and then it's game over.

Call me cynical, but I've not seen enough performance benefits from carbon to really justify the price -- short of racers or jumpers, I doubt with our typical mow the lawn cruising it makes any difference.

But, all that said ... no question that carbon is sexier, its light, its sleek, it looks good, and it feels good. So, if you have the money and don't mind spending it, then do it ... much like owning a shiny new sports car, if it makes you happy, then you really don't need any more reason than that.
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Post by UnusuallyLargeRobin »

I don't think any of the carbon foil masts have come in lighter than the alu's that I'm aware of, could be wrong. Many forum comments have said the alu's seem stiffer and same weight. So, yeah not seeing a big advantage other than sinking/losing.
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Post by grantmac »

I know the carbon race mast on the Starboard I had recently was just longer, not particularly lighter than the Slingshot. It was much stiffer though. I could feel the flex in the Slingshot as a kind of wobble crossing through swells and boat wakes.

A leash is great but I've seem them fail/get forgotten.
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A couple comments from the designer

Post by ProjectCedrus »

Hi everyone, thanks for letting me chime in here. I noticed some activity from this forum through Google Analytics, and appreciate the discussion. I've been chatting with Grant and wanted to share some thoughts here if you don't mind.

First, regarding price, this is a bit of a sore spot for me as I feel I am offering a very innovative product that is handmade in the US by skilled technicians at a price that is quite similar to other carbon masts produced in Asia with very little engineering or design costs. I am deep in the hole in this project, and doing it out of love, not money. So please understand that doing business in North America is expensive, and I am trying to shift the sporting goods industry away from cheap products produced in Asia to more innovative toys made locally. It's a very big paradigm shift! Further, most of my customers feel they paid the mast off very quickly, simply by avoiding the need to purchase a new mast when a new set of wings came out that they were interested in trying.

Secondly, I developed Project Cedrus to address the downfalls that exist with current carbon masts, which are as you point out no lighter, no stiffer, no more damage tolerant, and much more expensive than aluminum. The only area current carbon masts exceed aluminum in is hydrodynamics/drag, which is really only important if you are racing. The young's modulus of carbon fiber is ~160GPa, which is more than two times stiffer than aluminum at 68GPa. So if a carbon mast is not as stiff as aluminum, it is completely due to the design and engineering (or lack thereof), NOT the mechanical properties of the material. Project Cedrus is much stiffer than existing carbon masts through an optimized layup and section shape. I have sized wings for carbon airplanes (Boeing 787, small GA aircraft) so I know a little about this topic. The mast is thicker than others, which allows it to be hollow and therefore much lighter as well. It's basic solid mechanics, and I can tell you that all of my customers really appreciate the lightweight design, and definitely notice the stiffness, especially with the bigger wings.

Finally, I figured this would be a cool place to share that the main decal/logo was designed by the BC First Nations artist, Roy Henry Vickers. I remember his Tofino gallery vividly on a circumnavigation of VI back in the 1990s. It was a pleasure to work with him on this project, and the Dorsal-Feather-Cedar logo has a lot of deep meaning to both him and I.

For any of you interested in the technical details, the story of the development can be found here: https://projectcedrus.com/category/cedrus-development/

Thank you, Kyle
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Post by eastside »

Well, that’s cool. All success to you Kyle.
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Post by KUS »

I’d promote that effort just for you supporting local design & manufacturing....wish others would follow suit! When you are pinched, price is the almighty ruler....I’m at a stage i would pay way more for innovation and quality....And local talent and interaction!...in a language i can understand

Hope to see your toys on the water....I dated Elizabeth of the Vickers in another life, got more exposure, his work is pretty LoveBC! Wonder how Liz is these days...
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Post by GregK »

Kyle - done any FEA's on carbon and aluminium struts, or masts as most North Americans like to call them ? Would love to know how close the stress from typical hydorfoil use is to the fatigue strength of the aluminium alloys used in "masts".

Can't be too close as fatigue failures have yet to become a problem for well-used aluminum "mast" . But maybe like aluminum windsurfing masts and booms, they'll reach fatigue life limits and suddenly failures will be wide-spread. And at that point, kiters will recognize the vastly better fatigue strength of carbon composites.
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ProjectCedrus
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stiffness critical

Post by ProjectCedrus »

Hey Greg, based on my analysis/experience, foil masts/struts are "stiffness critical" structures. This means that a design with adequate stiffness will have excessive strength. So all the aluminum masts out there are way over-designed from a strength standpoint, which is why you don't see many failures. In steady state use, eg. going in a straight line, the foil masts have extremely low stress. Don't even need FEA to calculate it, just divide the sectional area (mm^2) of the mast by the rider+rig weight (N), and you will see you are well below the yield strength of ~200MPa. Fatigue strength will depend on number of cycles, and be impacted by environmental factors like corrosion, but operating stresses still aren't even close. Most failures are bending/buckling and they occur during maneuverers, like quick turns or pumping in the surf.

Carbon works really well for mast and booms because the weight benefits are much bigger thanks to the larger structure. They're also easier tooled parts, usually filament wound mandrels, so the manufacturing costs aren't as high when compared to complex molded structures. To be honest given the carbon foil masts on the market, I see very little reason to buy them. And this is coming from someone with lots of carbon bikes in their life:) But unless it's lighter, stiffer, stronger, etc... why pay the premium over aluminum?

Project Cedrus on the other hand, is lighter, stiffer, stronger than any aluminum mast you throw at it. And it works with different wings, etc. I wouldn't sell it if I didn't think it provided value. But most sporting goods companies are just trying to get you to upgrade every year, usually by changing colors or a slight modification to shape. You can't truly innovate with 1 year product lifecycles.
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First mast on Vancouver Island!

Post by ProjectCedrus »

Thank you Peter for your patience while I designed these custom adapters and board mounts for you. I wish I could cross the border to hand deliver it! Enjoy the ride, Kyle
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Post by shaggy »

Looks awesome! Looking forward to flying the Cedrus/Vickers logo.
Thanks Kyle,
Pete
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