2015 Nitinaht Lake Fees and Politics

[winddude]

It might be in the best interest of the band to lease the site to a Wind Society for a fixed or a portion of the fees, thereby avoiding any headaches with operating the site all together yet still collecting roughly the same revenue. Seems like a win-win.

What is going on right now would be akin to FLNRO trying to manage the site and charge user fees at Squamish Spit...

I like that idea.!!! P.S.:Beginners body dragging downwind through the main area where people windsurf isn't safe. Even the spit, which is over run by kiters takes lessons way out of the way although not downwind, and scoops them up before they get close to windsurfers.

[nanmoo]

a) do you really fuss about leaving a tip at a restaurant? It is small change... if you can't keep the big ticket items and the small change items separate.

I don't think you can or should assume that just because a tip doesn't matter to you that it doesn't matter to the rest of the community. Some of the people in this community scrape every penny they can to make this hobby work for them, and those pennies might be the difference for them. I'm sure they would gladly accept your excess change however.

b)The community has been making the same complaints for decades. If it really was an issue people would be making and discussing plans to work around it. They'd camp elsewhere and day trip. They'd be looking at alternate sites. Instead we're making plans to rebuild the sauna and discussing trail upgrades.

Why camp elsewhere when a bit of tweaking to the current site is all that is required? People continue to talk about it so obviously it is an issue, folks are simply trying to make the best of the situation. I think you are discounting the amount of effort that has occurred over the years to ensure things are as good as they currently are. As it's been noted over the years things have been in various stages from very well run to very poorly run. Do you think that if you just sit idly by the sidelines it will tip towards the better or worse end of the spectrum?

Personally I am thankful that there are people passionate about the camp-site and it upsets me that some peoples ignorance and indifference undermines those efforts. If you don't care, just don't say anything at all, but don't call out the people who are trying to make things better for you and me.

"Shut up and sail?!?" How well would that have worked for the PA crew when the Harbour Authority shut down the launch?

[skywalker]

That’s actually a great Idea. A Vancouver Island Windsport Society leasing the land would solve a lot of our problems. We could have membership at $250 per person for the year. – Includes unlimited camping and sailing at the lake. Free rescue service (we’d hire someone).

Charge a flat rate day rate of $20 for non members, that includes camping and rescue service.

With 300 people, we would have $75,000!

$15000 for annual operating costs (maintenance, jet ski, sanitation)
$50000 for the lease.

Easy, done! No more drama! We’d be a well oiled machine just like squamish and we could hold all kinds of events!

[tbrown]

a) I'm far from a rich bastard. (no new gear, no new vehicle, lots of compromises). If camp fees are really that big a deal, park and camp outside the park. Keep in mind that the park fees are likely one of the few sources of revenue for the band members. There are two sides to that coin... but few of us seem to care about anyone else's wallet (1st world).

b) Please don't purposely take my words out of context.I didn't tell you or anyone else to shut up and sail. I said that I (as in me, myself and I) would rather do that (and marked it in bold). (Now I feel like I'm being attacked.)

c) The PA example is a good one. Did they sit around and vent, or did they get organized and actually do something. They did things. With the exception of ridelikehell I'm not seeing any action here. Then again he also made suggestions and asked for help... with the normal lack of a response. (Ditto for my own.) Seems like a pretty normal first world situation to me.

-Tom

(p.s. nice clean writing, keep it up :)

[otisdadog]

I understand it sounds like complaining/venting, however the fees in the past I felt were reflective of the service I was recieving. I didn't complain about the fact there was no toilet paper in the outhouses because I was paying 10 dollars to share a campsite with 4 people. That being said when I paid 45 dollars to share the same campsite a few weeks ago because we had 3 vehicles and there was no toilet paper I felt it was a bit much. Having the water tap at the entrance of the campsite is a nice service but I have yet to see anything that justifies such an increase.

I haven't checked the notice board at the entrance but I know the notice board at the windsurf launch states the fees are per party, and the BC parks website states the same and we are being issued receipts from BC parks. I totally support people who want clarification on this issue.

Can I afford it yes I can, but it doesn't mean I should just pay if. If people didn't complain we would still be paying day use fees that they tried to implement at the beginning of the summer. My next plan is to contact the Band to voice my concerns and see what there response is.

[downwind dave]

anyone looking for me this season, i'm camping up at my own lake, i call it "Lake Awesome".
it's super windy up there and nobody gets in my way.

[KUS]

We could have membership at $250 per person for the year. – Includes unlimited camping and sailing at the lake. Free rescue service (we’d hire someone).

Charge a flat rate day rate of $20 for non members, that includes camping and rescue service.

With 300 people, we would have $75,000!

$15000 for annual operating costs (maintenance, jet ski, sanitation)
$50000 for the lease.

Easy, done! No more drama! We’d be a well oiled machine just like squamish and we could hold all kinds of events!

Well, first off fundraising for this site without MAKING someone pay really shows you how easy it is to raise money....I am appalled that the same people pay every year and others see this and shrug their shoulders.....

Secondly, perhaps this is a matter of personal opinion but....I would rather see NO events and not market the place to the globe, who wants to be like Squamish??????? What....R u nuts?? it will rob the lake of it's last bit of paradise that remains.

As for payments, the NAT in the grand scheme of things is never going to be a huge money maker, not sure what the vision is....If I was the Band I would just as easily lease it to a Nature Conservancy Group so they would use the funds to maintain my land since it's difficult to get rid of the Wind Addicts. The Windsurfing Society had an annual volunteer payment pass of $50/yr....worked for a good long while

[winddude]

lol, guess I shouldn't share my views on rescue service? lol, I will anyways.

I've done lots of rescues, and lots of bringing students upwind when teaching groups of 20,30+.

A paid rescue service is a bad idea, people should know how to self rescue, nitnat is relatively small and easy place to sail. You should be able to manage it here. I can't tell you how many people I've rescued at resort who quit sailing simply because they were tired, and how badly you want to smack some sense into them. People need to learn to sail in there limits, and know how to handle a situation when you get into a sticky situation.

I've swam in at squish when the wind dropped and refused a lift from the ski, because I was making it in, and am capable of it. I'm not say be stupid about it and refuse help if it's critical but too many people need to suck it up.

[winddude]

The way to do a paid rescue service is charge when you're picking up.
Example:
rescue pulls up on ski, rescuer ~ "are you okay, need a rescue?" ~non-injured rescue "I'm fine, my X gear broke, (or I'm tired)", recuer ~ "that'll be $35", rescuee ~ "uhh, what?", rescuer ~ "you're not injured, you can self rescue, suck it up,or $35"

[Teabag]

Pat, Kim, and anyone from Ditihat reading this, please be aware that the few rude comments above are not share amongst most of us.

I re read the whole thing including Chris original message and basically we need to agree as a group of what would be a fair price that would make people pay voluntarily if self registration system was in place to minimize employee salary/time. The main "frustration" from reading this whole thread is from the fact that when people share a site (all cars/tents in same site) is that it cost them the same as if they were to use 2 or 3 different sites.

I think price should be an addition of these 3 things:
(max of 3 cars, 3 tent per site)

1- Per person (200 persons will garbage/use outhouse more than 100 persons) = 3$

2- Per Vehicle (limited parking, save$by reducing foot print)= 3$
(still some user parking in the loading zone for FS!)

3- Per Site (Obviously) = 8$
*** Some site would be higher, some lower, a map/calculation/analyse of all site should be done before coming to a proper fare ***


(Higher rate in July - Aug including labour day weekend and May Long)
(Lower rate May-June-September)

1 person, 1 car, 1 site: $14 ($14 p/p per night)
2 person, 1 car, 1 site: $17 ($8.5 p/p p/n)
3 person, 1 car, 1 site: $20 ($6.66 p/p p/n)
up to 6 persons.........: $29 ($4.83 p/p p/n)


2 person, 2 car, 1 site: $20 ($10 p/n)
3 person, 2 car, 1 site: $23 ($7.66 p/n)
4 person, 2 car, 1 site: $26 ($6.5 p/n)
up to 6 personjs.........: $32 (5.3 p/n)

3 person, 3 car, 1 site: $27 ($9 p/n)
4 person, 3 car, 1 site: $30 ($7.5 p/n)
5 person, 3 car, 1 site: $33 ($6.6 p/n)
6 person, 3 car, 1 site: $36$ (6 p/n)

*** Kids 6 and below free.
*** Substract $ 5 for every single women 25-35 years old that is included in your camping party.
*** Would need suggestion to find price for beach camping/RV ...
*** Due to the fact that 99% of user are on the water and most times unreachable most of the day, a stricker rule/punishment for people not complying with voluntary payment, lock wheel system? Too bad so sad, pay the fine to get that thing out of your wheel ***

But for sites in general, to encourage voluntary payments, would that be fair? Is the price above too complicated? Should we put more per person, less per car? Another method?

- No more "Im scare that it will go to the native hand kind of comments" please, you should be more scare that it will go to a "white man" wanting to make money.
- And run by "wind community" wont work either, we had some very good ones doing this in the past and part of the reason they quit is because of complaining/people never happy with work they did and false accusation online..., yes by the wind community again... Dale/Mark and Mary school
- Sauna is a privilege, we are lucky that they let it happen all these years, tks Chris for the letter, tks Herman, Ean, Dwayne and others for work/material.

Need to come up with some price suggestions so if Chris has another meeting, he can come up with suggestions that promote voluntary registration/payments, requiring less employee/reducing cost. They are willing to listen to us, lets come up with price suggestions. Although not much service compare to other campground, lets not forget that people from Alberta, Squamish, Ontario, California, etc... pay to spend holidays there... The steady wind, this is a huge amenity in itself, supply and demand...

Nitinaht is far from city, on logging roads.... Cost of pumping outhouse, getting food supply, dry goods, getting rid of garbage etc... is more expensive. To collect effectively it would require easily 1 employee at the gate, 10-12 hours shift day + 1 manager/assistant manager 8 hours a day on certain timings, especially weekend. ~ 126 hours @ $18 hour (average manager/person at the gate)= $2,268 per week or $9720 per month. 48,600$ For 5 months in salary. Outhouse pumping is probably quite expensive as well. Commercial TP, for busy time goes by quick to... Fire ring, etc...


Please lets come up with price suggestion so Chris can come up with something relevant/solution when it comes to talking with the new management, request etc... And voluntary payment system.

Tony?Adrian?Otis?Anybody? Any price suggestion on how much would be fair? The more suggestions we have, the better it will be for Chris.

[winddude]

If kiteboarding continues at nitnat the way it does now, it will only be a matter of time before someone is seriously injured or killed by a kite or lines. It's overcrowded with kiters, kiters are up wind of windsurfers, and begginers are getting dragged downwind through everyone even at peak times.

[nanmoo]

Bru, if you think nitinat is crowded with kiters you need to see Squamish... It's not even in the same ballpark. Nitinat is the kiddie pool of crowds. Not to mention downwind there is just scary with pilings and industry. I don't know of anyone dying yet.

I also can't wait until you start kiting. ....you know there are several of us competent windsurfers doing it, obviously for a reason. It's just a matter if time until you fulfill your destiny as a true waterman.

But I digress, this thread is about other things.

[Teabag]

Windude pls check your pm.

To all: Please lets put some suggestion price, your though on what would be fair, the more the better. We will see everyone opinion and make a resume/consensus of it, then it can give Chris something reasonable to try to push forward.
Can we do that? Price suggestion everyone!!!

My price suggestion:
(Higher rate in July - Aug including labour day weekend and May Long)
(Lower rate May-June-September)

1 person, 1 car, 1 site: $14 ($14 p/p per night)
2 person, 1 car, 1 site: $17 ($8.5 p/p p/n)
3 person, 1 car, 1 site: $20 ($6.66 p/p p/n)
up to 6 persons.........: $29 ($4.83 p/p p/n)


2 person, 2 car, 1 site: $20 ($10 p/n)
3 person, 2 car, 1 site: $23 ($7.66 p/n)
4 person, 2 car, 1 site: $26 ($6.5 p/n)
up to 6 personjs.........: $32 (5.3 p/n)

3 person, 3 car, 1 site: $27 ($9 p/n)
4 person, 3 car, 1 site: $30 ($7.5 p/n)
5 person, 3 car, 1 site: $33 ($6.6 p/n)
6 person, 3 car, 1 site: $36$ (6 p/n)

*** Kids 6 and below free.
*** Substract $ 5 for every single women 25-35 years old that is included in your camping party.
*** Would need suggestion to find price for beach camping/RV ...
*** Due to the fact that 99% of user are on the water and most times unreachable most of the day, a stricker rule/punishment for people not complying with voluntary payment, lock wheel system? Too bad so sad, pay the fine to get that thing out of your wheel ***

But for sites in general, to encourage voluntary payments, would that be fair? Is the price above too complicated? Should we put more per person, less per car? Another method?


Lets keep in my mind an actual reasonable operating cost, most people wwwwaaaaaayyyyy underestimate the operating costs...
Especially at Nitinaht Lake where most of users are away on the water as oppose to their campsites, where an honest self registering fee is more problematic to check/resolve non payment that other places....

No need to read further if you understand that operating cost are higher than most people think. Please put your price suggestions/you think its fair!!!


If you think that operating cost are cheap pls have a long read below:
As a minimum, as a self regulated place Monday-Thursday(least busy), you still need at least an 8 hours employee day work... Just a quick example:
(8 X $18 hour= 144$, X Mon-Thur= $576 + Fri-Sun= $600 at least for $1176 a week, ~ $4600 a month just for lower months)
0900-1200: Opening the locked paying box, looking at every "self registered envelops, updating an excell sheet on the computer (campsite number VS car model/plates number). Verify if payment are ok, or "fake" (ie someone just filled out envelop for their car window, but didnt put any money in it thinking they ll get away with it). Update database, printout that sheet and start the walk to check all campsites, the parking area for beach campers, note all the cars that dont have any stickers, didnt bother to pay... Come back update database of actual payments. Walk back to non compliant "self registering" cars and put a wheel lock on their cars... Etc.. etc.. etc... What about the checkout time?? Who enforce it? What are the penalty?
1200-1300: Lunch Brake
1300-1600: Bathroom clean up resupply, try to deal with cars that didnt pay, how many people in the party? Re update database, take garbage bag to ????? Etc..Etc..Etc..
Yes not too bad in May-June-September, but July-Aug oh my god, busy busy... Would be way more expensive in labour...

This is why I believe that 2 employee with a gate system might be a more proficient way... (At least for July August).

How much do you think having a truck pumping the outhouse cost? How much do you think a delivery truck load of TP cost? Etc...Etc...Etc..

Anyway, price suggestion !!!

[nitnaht Pat]

If kiteboarding continues at nitnat the way it does now, it will only be a matter of time before someone is seriously injured or killed by a kite or lines. It's overcrowded with kiters, kiters are up wind of windsurfers, and begginers are getting dragged downwind through everyone even at peak times.

Windude the day of windsurfers believing they will die by Kite or lines is long gone ..... LOL there I had my say

[SmallWaveSteve]

...
I think price should be an addition of these 3 things:
(max of 3 cars, 3 tent per site)

1- Per person (200 persons will garbage/use outhouse more than 100 persons) = 3$

2- Per Vehicle (limited parking, save$by reducing foot print)= 3$
(still some user parking in the loading zone for FS!)

3- Per Site (Obviously) = 8$
*** Some site would be higher, some lower, a map/calculation/analyse of all site should be done before coming to a proper fare ***
...

*** Would need suggestion to find price for beach camping/RV ...
*** Due to the fact that 99% of user are on the water and most times unreachable most of the day, a stricker rule/punishment for people not complying with voluntary payment, lock wheel system? Too bad so sad, pay the fine to get that thing out of your wheel ***

But for sites in general, to encourage voluntary payments, would that be fair? Is the price above too complicated? Should we put more per person, less per car? Another method?
...

IMO something along those lines is probably the best balance of encouraging people to share sites/take up less parking/and still pay fees.

The "campsites" along the trail and on the beach should be cheaper, not premium in my opinion, you have to hump you gear in and are taking less space. The beachside section of the loop could be considered premium though.

If they had a windshield pass system (dropbox at the main gate with windshield slip, like the provincial parks do for backcountry campsites) at the gate when people came in, they would just have to do a walkthrough and check cars dashboards for payment. Enforcement would be way easier/less work/lower cost.

I don't think a rescue service is necessary right now, providing people are willing to pay the schools (as long as they're not opposed to doing it, the schools can chime in on that subject) I've swam in quite a few times, when I've been picked up, I had no problem paying.