Minor incident at Nitinat Aug 26th – feedback?

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JasonD
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Post by JasonD »

I'm not a fan of using the term Right-of-Way. The correct Coll Regs are Stand On and Give Way. I think the term Right-of-Way gives a rider too much of the "I'm not moving, I've got the Right-of-Way." attitude even though Rule 17b basically states that a Stand on Vessel should try and avoid a collision if the Give Way vessel's actions are not enough to prevent a collision. If I'm driving down the highway n someone crosses into my lane from the opposite direction, I'm def gona get out out of the way to avoid a collision. Then again, the whole stop n park the kite at 12 is prob the safest bet...
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JL
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Post by JL »

Well said Jason. :P
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TonyT1000
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Post by TonyT1000 »

Really appreciate everyone's constructive input here. Thanks.

Given the on-water traffic at Nitinat I think it should be mandatory for all schools to ensure that novices, before venturing out solo, are given some very simple instructions re: "Stand On/Give Way" guidelines (I like that point Jason). I use the term "guidelines" rather than rules as I was always taught that "rules are for the obedience of fools, but the guidance of wise men".

Even if someone had told me the single simple point that kiting AWAY from the beach at Nitinat one should yield or stay downwind as best as possible to those coming BACK to the beach this would have helped.

I have some sympathy for kite school businesses operating in a limited thermal wind window with multiple clients chomping at the bit to get their runs in. High pressure stuff, stressful for the instructors. But a big downside to this sense of panic/rushing is that there is no real time for any post run debriefing or discussions of safety, basic rules, etc. That's a problem IMHO.
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CTK
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Post by CTK »

more force 4 wrote:
I think its critical for the kite schools to teach right-of-way rules (and I expect any liability lawyer would say the same) AND for more experienced people to know them and follow them. I'm a little concerned about the 'always just head downwind' advice if its meant for both port and stbd tack, because two people trying to give way to each other is a recipe for crashing.
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90% of the time in my experience beginners will get scared and put there kite at 12. Any experienced kiter can read what the approaching person is doing well in advance regardless of right-of-way. All im saying is that if im in the right-of-way and bear upwind when the approaching beginner gets close they will most of the time put there kite at 12 instead of keeping it low.... so it would make it a lot easier if they just went downwind.
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Post by foiler »

if you are experienced it is your fault for not avoiding the newbie.bottom line.Screw the right of way.
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Joostio
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Post by Joostio »

I'm wih Foiler too. I had a near miss kiting at Nitinat last week. It was only my second day standing on a kite board. I made it pretty far upwind. I was stopped in the water with my kite at 12. I was getting ready to water start. An experienced kiter decided to go by me down wind of me but within my length of kite lines. I didn't see him when I dipped my kite down to start. I did miss him, I should have looked first. I will be more careful in the future. I also plan to avoid people wih kites at 12 and giving ample room down wind.

The same day I had my kite at 12 and a lady who looked less experienced tried to pass Me upwind. Our kites would have tangled but I managed to get her attention before. situational awerness is key!

Look out for us newbs!
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Post by emearg »

"screw the right of way"WTF - really ??

it should be drummed into Newbies heads what the rules on the water are....of course all are meant to avoid collisions but if i am on starboard and someone is trying to pinch upwind of me, while on port tack, they are in the wrong and should give way.
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Post by AC »

Rules of right away should be respected....
But if you an able kiteboarder it is quite easy to see who is just learning ...and who is unstable..
If you notice someone who is new.
And if you don't get out of the way your an idiot.
Stay away if you don't want to have any issues.
It's like standing under a juggler while he is learning ..
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Post by nanmoo »

emearg wrote:"screw the right of way"WTF - really ??

it should be drummed into Newbies heads what the rules on the water are....of course all are meant to avoid collisions but if i am on starboard and someone is trying to pinch upwind of me, while on port tack, they are in the wrong and should give way.
I think he means, 'if you can't deliberately decide where you are going right-of-way rules are pretty useless.' I agree. Avoid the newbs. It's really easy.
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Post by Globe »

foiler wrote:if you are experienced it is your fault for not avoiding the newbie.bottom line.Screw the right of way.
Agree. Sadly for others on the water (I suppose) I rarely pay any attention to "right of way rules" - that said I've never really had an issue in over a decade of riding because as an experienced kiter I feel it is my role to actively prevent collisions. Try to make eye contact with the person approaching and put your kite high or low to signal to the other rider whether your going upwind or downwind.

I ride with 10 or more other kites in a puddle at the goose spit and it seems to work. I get that there are formalized rules... but realistically I think you're better being aware of your surroundings and being very active in working to avoid collisions if you are an experienced kiter - ie: give way when in doubt of the skill or intent of the other rider. Again why I think the experienced kiter was in the wrong in the original post. Newbies aren't hard to spot, don't ride into them and be aware that at any time they might just inadvertently megaloop into you without warning. So if you want to enforce your right of way with a newbie best of luck to you.

I'll be the defensive driver... unless I'm megalooping over you ;) (kidding)
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Post by tempy »

Globe, it is not about enforcing a right of way rule - I totally agree that we should all be more defensive. However, the " rules of the water" ( let's call them that) are in place so that we know what we SHOULD be doing if we are in control of our craft, and to prevent the uncertainty as to who should " give way" that leads to collisions.

If I had to try summarize this ( very productive exchange, btw) it would be:
1. Everyone should be taught and know the " right of way" rules,
2. Inexperienced operators should err on the side of " avoid" or " " stop" if in doubt,
3. Experienced operators should ID newbies and be tolerant of and avoid them - give them a wide, considerate berth , because we can!
4. Have fun out there - it is all good!
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Joostio
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Post by Joostio »

I've been involved with sailboats all my life. I used to instruct when I was younger. We did teach right of way but it never came into play until racing. Then you would use right of way as an advantage to force some one else to tack or bare off when they didn t want to. First rule is avoid others.
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tempy
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Post by tempy »

Joostio, I disagree. I raced and sailed sailboats and windsurfers since 1982 and the Starboard / Port rules were always the way we knew how to stay out of each other's way. It is not a reason to bear down on someone, but I think it is important that we understand them as they can help us all on the water. Not just for racing.
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Post by JasonD »

Joostio: Really?? Wow! Please tell me you were not taught this and are not teaching people this!! Kiting aside; if you practice what you preach on the water in a sailboat, you need to give your head a shake and re-read the ColRegs n have someone interpret the rules to you. Then again, it's people like you that keep me employed... Hopefully you meant you only follow these modified guidelines while racing??
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Post by skywalker »

JasonD wrote:Joostio: Really?? Wow! Please tell me you were not taught this and are not teaching people this!! Kiting aside; if you practice what you preach on the water in a sailboat, you need to give your head a shake and re-read the ColRegs n have someone interpret the rules to you. Then again, it's people like you that keep me employed... Hopefully you meant you only follow these modified guidelines while racing??

No Joostio is right. When you're on the water sailing, and with any sport what actually happens in practice is

1- Stay out of each others way, don't be a d*ck.
2- if you're forced to come near each other, then follow the rules.

When racing, and ONLY when racing, which was clear from Joostios post, then you use the rules like a chess player would.
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