Great post 'V' Dood...Treat wilderness campsites like you would your own back yard. I miss the good old days (86) when I had to beg people to go to Nitinat so I wouldn't sail alone but it is what it is....

Someone had to say it....

Oh and jimmy..do you know who the green man is ? as in my avatar ?.Hint..the Druids..nuf said..

As for secret spots, etc. this is the Ditidaht's village - their home. We come in and stomp around in their back yard for a couple of months of the year, complain that we can't squat and shit wherever we want because it's our god given natural right to windsurf and party where ever we please. They live next to the lake 12 months of the year. Their livlihood is linked, at least partly, to the natural resources in and around the lake. They've lived here for thousands of years. If they want to raise fish in a small stream and don't want people shiting in it I would think they have every right to. I'll help them if they want help! They can call it eco- anything as far as I care.

I agree, the care of the toilets isn't up to snuff. Hopefully, the new person will work on that and things will improve. I just drove up to Bear Creek on the west side of Harrison Lake on the weekend. They charge $10 to camp there too and the shithouses didn't have toilet paper either.

I'm with V-man. I'm just happy to be allowed to sail on their lake. Hell, I'd stock Fred's bathroom with toilet paper if that's what it took!

Have those with concerns emailed Fred directly?

The first step is communication. It has to happen to be considered.

I think everyone needs to be a little careful with their comments regarding the site. When the Band settles their land claim with the Province the campsite and the water front up to the river will become private property. The will be no restrictions on how the Band uses the land or even if they will continue to operate it as a campsite.

That said.

Currently access and costs are controlled very carefully by the Province by way of a management contract between the Band (Ditidaht Cedar Salvage) and the Ministry of Forests, Recreation. Regardless of how the Band's operator acts on any given point they are still responsible to the Min of Forests Recreation and must operate within the contract. Cleanliness, stocking of toilet paper, painting of the infrastructure, service days, fees etc are all part of the contract.

If complaints are not address by the Band's appointed operator then complaints can be made directly to the Min of Forests Recreation who will first investigate with the contractor (the Band) and then have to respond to the complainer.

Nitinat is still an unbeatable exsperience. For those that want to complain and do nothing about it, go elsewhere. Personally, my kids and family love it up there. It is up to all of us to be accountable for the site. We are the guests, and hence should behave in a way that we are invited back to visit. It would be a tragedy if the site was shut down in the future, or the cost was prohibitive.

Rather than complain, thank the Ditidaht for what they are doing. If you have suggestions to improve the site, send them to Fred, his contact info is in this thread. If you feel that there is too much garbage, take it out with you.

The site gets very crowded, so respect for it, and other users, is key to its longjevity. When there is no wind, do a little improvement and more than your fair share. The site is what it is because a few people have always followed that credo.

Actually I'm not new and you mix up critique with bitching, please don't. I totally respect the place and people and the very reason for posting is that I appreciate the place so much. The fastest way to lose it is for the respect to be lost. Fastest way for respect to be lost is to create the situation that was evident last year. I always, repeat always, pack my own and some more out, have never gone in the woods and the issue is not lack of TP but lack of service and cleanliness especially mid last year. Since my two daughters (10 and 12) usually travel with me we notice conditions very quickly. The funds collected are supposed to be partially spent towards stocking, cleaning WC's, and pumpouts. The $10 is adequate to perform those simple services and have some extra which is great, the amount - $10, $15 whatever is not my issue. By asking the collectors to perform before collecting funds they get the message, hopefully they act on it and things improve, as it was last year things went seriously downhill. Once that started the disrespect for the site grows as was evident. Never the case in previous years as you'll recall. I have cleaned lots of toilets and picked up lots of other garbage there (especially garbage left in fire pits - folks, it just blows around and tin doesn't burn!) and I have every right as a citizen of this earth to point out to Fred et al my concerns- this is the ultimate respect for him and the place! Critique/Criticism is not bitching, however holding your tongue until newbies who arrive there start throwing bottles around because the place already appears dirty is stupidity! Allowing that is really dis-honouring the band and their lands, and both sides must play a role in correcting the problem before it goes further. Another choice is to limit the crowds to what the place can handle and charge more. Who's volunteering to stay home?
Geoff/PHDewd

Glad to see this thread is moderating and getting to a consensus amongst users. For basic camping fees there needs to be reasonable daily cleaning of the outhouses. And for the sake of public health I think they need to put some more up at the upwind end of the camp, even though it is on Cascadia (or is it the other company Weyerhaueser coastal was split into?) land. The toilet paper is a great bonus, but not necessary for my money (sure was nice to find it a couple of times when I forgot mine). It was a real blessing to have the crappers so thoroughly scrubbed twice (?) daily in the years around 2002 when the Society ran the camp. I am pretty sure it was a volunteer roster, and mostly it seemed to be 2 or 3 or 4 people doing it - I always felt guilty for not doing my bit. Should be part of the job descripiton for camp attendants for sure.

I'm sure Fred is following this thread - (he's probably the only one in the world whose official job description includes checking the BWD site -- Oh and the Customs guy I guess ) - can you confirm you've seen this Fred? Or we'll deluge you with e-mail ....

And yes, we are the guests of the Ditidaht while we are there. They have indeed lived there thousands of years, although the present village only became an actual village very recently (it was a short term camping spot before). Some of the Ditidaht villages on the coast have shell middens with BILLIONS of California mussel shells. That requires a lot of people and a lot of time to accumulate. And the beach from the campsite to the Caycuse is littered with fire-altered rocks. Most of this isn't from the last 20 years of windsport parties - traditionally this beach was a place to finish and fire-scorch dugout canoes, which the Ditidaht used themselves and traded to other groups all over the coast and some of their canoes even ended up in the interior. In a region of master canoe-builders, Ditidaht canoes were regarded as the best, certainly on the south coast. And the Ditidaht were rated as some of the greatest watermen in the New World. There are no 'safe harbours' with all-weather approaches which almost every other First Nation had. The Lake is quiet, but you have to get over the bar and through the Narrows to get there. And the other village sites up and down what is now the West Coast Trail had mostly open surf beaches with limited protection from offshore reefs. The energy at these places is absolutely awesome, even on a quiet day. The skills needed to safely 'get to work' and back every day were amazing. Take a trip to the outside with Fred sometime. It will blow your mind.

And lets get some of their kids into our sport - kiters, do your bit, get them out there - they will be awesome in only a couple of seasons and there are probably jobs for them after that if they want. The more Ditidaht that are involved in windsports the better the outcome for the rest of us of changes that will come whether we want things to stay exactly as they are or not.

I'm not privy to what the Ditidaht are planning long-term for the campsite or the area in general, I'm guessing, but they would be crazy not to try and get some real economic development from windsports. I can't see kiting stop growing for the next while. THere are an aweful lot of Europeans and others who kite and have money and have a desire to see 'wilderness'. Maybe that is what is meant by 'eco friendly development'? Don't be surprised if some higher-end condo lodge type things appear on the shores in the next decade. Might improve conditions in the camp by taking pressure off, as would being able to expand towards the river. And the potential is probably huge for extreme adventure kiting-in-surf expeditions to select spots on the outside (generally not enough summer wind to windsurf, but kiting would often work). Could be the equivalent of helicopter skiing -- pricey, but worth it if you have the $. Expect change. Talk to their representatives like Fred - encourage well-planned and sensitive development.

Anyway, more than enough said for tonight!

Thanks for the brief history lesson MF4. I used to go to a house in the village that was a part time cafe & shower stop. The fellow who lived there told a story of a ship wreck off the Nitinat bar..The villagers from Clo-oose paddled out to help & recovered bags of white powder. They poured out the powder & used the sacking for clothing. Years later this fellow recognized that the useless powder had been flour! He also told how on his Honey moon the Lady Rose couldn't get into Albernie so he & his wife had hiked from Uculet to the Nitinat village. (The cafe closed when there son returned home from prison but I enjoyed the inter action with the Elder whos name I have forgotton due to my ignorance with names & not his memorable conversations)

We all know that nothing ever stays the same. We just hope that we are provided affordable access.

For your information, Fred Sieber is no longer responsible for the day to day managmement and operations of the Nitinaht Lake Campsite, by order of Ditidaht Band Council - March 2005.

Ditidaht First Nation is interested in fostering a good relationship with kiters, windsurfers, campers and all users of the Nitinaht area.

We welcome your comments and suggestions regarding the Nitinaht Lake Campsite. Please contact either of the following:

Ditidaht Band Council
PO Box 340
Port Alberni, BC V9Y 7M8


Judi Lamb-Thomas
Administrator


Elsie Jeffrey
Deputy Administrator

are we coming full circle I wonder. Open dialogue certainly sounds promising. I know people have lots of valid views on this topic. here is mine.

I have sailed at Nitinat since 1987 and I recall the awe I felt until recently going there....the place has lost something for me...it has to do with numbers of people, disrespect, user fees, costs of fuel etc. but it is still an amazing spot we must cherish and protect. In this same vein however, I am back to the argument that I would rather do 10 hours of hard work moving logs, raking ground, picking up garbage than pay those $10, sorry gang not sure how I can lose the attitude on that. just cuz we get charged $28 bucks a nite for provincial parks with no firewood or hot showers and you have to pay everywhere you go when you want to take a breath near a beautiful spot on earth doesn't make it right. parking meters at parks included.
If there are direct costs unique to a site such as sucking the cans I would prefer the membership model and put in time and effort to gain access in exchange. (I happen to think that there is plenty of natural ways to deal with that little itty bit of sewage at the site ...yes, I hear some of you all turning red screaming, whatever.....and it doesn't include installing tanks to satisfy some overly zealous environmental freak.....there are bigger problems in the world than a few hundred campers over a 2 month period defecating in the woods, gimme a break. Mother nature doesn't skip a beat for that....)

Those not wanting to put in the effort should buck up or better yet stay away. this permits access for those who are wanting to be there and willing to work for it but doesn't discriminate in terms of coin. I firmly believe that the windsurfing/kiting groups haven't the attitude of a user pay group, at least not yet. I also don't think that Nitinat lake sailing can be a cash cow some people envision even if we were.

This site requires not a user pay model but a society care-takers model to preserve the site and its assets. Being part of the "group" even with a modest annual membership fee provides people with a sense of (excuse the term) ownership of the objective, to further and keep the place. Restricting access will result a greater problems than allowing it. User pay people expect service and GENERALLY not to do any work or take care of things (with the vital few holding things together and then getting pissed off), they will do either damage or not do anything to improve the place over the long term or even sustain it much in excess of the fee.

At the end of the day, this topic isn't about ownership.....nobody owns anything, get it?, we are all renters of mother nature. The trick is to include and integrate all user groups, including the nation without doing damage. I feel promise in this approach.


I would suggest: Bring back the society, relocate the cans in as proper a septic area that is possible, deal with abusers in a harsh and immediate and most importantly lasting manner (those hammering nails in trees, cutting roots, moving fire spots, leaving garbage). You can be barred from a pub, why not from Nitinat?....Rely on the decisions of an advisory board in terms of activities there. Get Moforests to accept responsibility for basic responsibilty for this site for all users, including road maintenance. Rely on member donations of work and materials/services. If we all take responsibility for a small part we come together as a community not grow apart as the have's and have nots.

And to those expressing their views constantly as GUESTS, take your comments and shove them as you cannot present your voice or have it considered without being identifiable!

nice rant Kus !

I usually avoid these threads but I have to put my 2cents in.......

A society type system would solve a lot of issues. Enforcement of garbage, cutting live trees, camp fires etc. would be regulated a bit better. Whats the first thing you see when you drive into the campground? The old stall laying over in the trees covered with garbage. NICE. When the fire bans were on and the province was burning down I asked some guy if he could put out his fire and was promptly told to F@%k off. The next day the campground was shut down and everyone sent home due to the fire risk. Someone came aound and told us that MOF rules have no juristiction on the Reserve. So we were told we could camp on the reserve and make as big a fire as we wanted! When we decided we wanted our cash back instead of camping by the boat ramp, the guy who had our prepaid camping money evaporated.....gone...
I am not bashing or disrepecting anyone here, jsut stating facts that the place needs to be run responsibly because its not right now.
I look after a heli-ski tenure and if I ran my tenure this way LWBC would yank it from me in a heartbeat!!